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	<title>Comments on: Another Side of The Death Camp Debate</title>
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	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 19 Jun 2013 17:41:52 +0300</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Bruce Sanders</title>
		<link>http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/another-side-of-the-death-camp-debate/#comment-82998</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Sanders</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2013 17:18:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=90194#comment-82998</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thank you for your senstive and thoughtful article.  I too am a Jew and have hosted exchange stuidents from Poland and Germany in my home and have very frond memories of their stays.  In fact, I consider one student named Paul (Pavel) from Oświęcim (Auschwitz) to be almost like a son.  While I can understand Ms. Englard&#039;s emotions, they are an insult to righteous Poles like Jan Karski, Witold Pilecki and many others.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for your senstive and thoughtful article.  I too am a Jew and have hosted exchange stuidents from Poland and Germany in my home and have very frond memories of their stays.  In fact, I consider one student named Paul (Pavel) from Oświęcim (Auschwitz) to be almost like a son.  While I can understand Ms. Englard&#039;s emotions, they are an insult to righteous Poles like Jan Karski, Witold Pilecki and many others.</p>
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		<title>By: Irene Newhouse</title>
		<link>http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/another-side-of-the-death-camp-debate/#comment-83004</link>
		<dc:creator>Irene Newhouse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jan 2013 04:44:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=90194#comment-83004</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;waited too long to leave&quot;. Possibly true for German Jews. The Nazi expropriation laws started small &amp; built up. Not so in Poland. The Germans invaded &amp; in a very short time, they&#039;d taken over the whole country. My father was in Prague when Czechoslovakia was attacked. A friend went to watch the Czech army move out, coming back extremely depressed. All he said was, &quot;They&#039;ve got such lovely horsies&quot;. My father said that said it all, as everyone knew the Germans had replaced all their horses with tanks. Must have been like that for Poland, too. And then it was all too often not a question of wanting to leave, but of being able to find some place to go! NO ONE wanted large numbers of refugee Jews. For instance: England had the Kindertransport, which saved 10,000 children. People in the US tried it, too &amp; only managed 1000. Even 10,000 was a drop in the bucket &amp; 1000 simply pathetic. The Dominican Republic offered to accept 100,000 refugees, a huge number considering the population. But only 900-some came. Why? Partly because the US refused to allow refugee Jews transit through US waters, through which ships to the Dom. Rep. from Europe routinely passed. See Marion Kaplan&#039;s &quot;Dominican Haven&quot;.  I&#039;m right now translating the letters of someone trying to get out of France in early 1940. In Jan 1940, the US consulate in Bordeaux was allowed to issue 30 visas for the whole month. People who had signed up to emigrate in 1938 were assigned those...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&quot;waited too long to leave&quot;. Possibly true for German Jews. The Nazi expropriation laws started small &amp; built up. Not so in Poland. The Germans invaded &amp; in a very short time, they&#039;d taken over the whole country. My father was in Prague when Czechoslovakia was attacked. A friend went to watch the Czech army move out, coming back extremely depressed. All he said was, &quot;They&#039;ve got such lovely horsies&quot;. My father said that said it all, as everyone knew the Germans had replaced all their horses with tanks. Must have been like that for Poland, too. And then it was all too often not a question of wanting to leave, but of being able to find some place to go! NO ONE wanted large numbers of refugee Jews. For instance: England had the Kindertransport, which saved 10,000 children. People in the US tried it, too &amp; only managed 1000. Even 10,000 was a drop in the bucket &amp; 1000 simply pathetic. The Dominican Republic offered to accept 100,000 refugees, a huge number considering the population. But only 900-some came. Why? Partly because the US refused to allow refugee Jews transit through US waters, through which ships to the Dom. Rep. from Europe routinely passed. See Marion Kaplan&#039;s &quot;Dominican Haven&quot;.  I&#039;m right now translating the letters of someone trying to get out of France in early 1940. In Jan 1940, the US consulate in Bordeaux was allowed to issue 30 visas for the whole month. People who had signed up to emigrate in 1938 were assigned those&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Varda Epstein</title>
		<link>http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/another-side-of-the-death-camp-debate/#comment-83002</link>
		<dc:creator>Varda Epstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jan 2013 20:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=90194#comment-83002</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You want to give them a chance. You want to believe that they would never do what their fathers and grandfathers did. So you too, would wait too long. You too, want to believe whatever nice facade you are shown and believe in that instead of believing that they were raised by their fathers who were raised by their grandfathers and deep down, harbor the same hatreds. You would wait too long again, not believing that history could repeat. To you, &quot;Never Again&quot; is just a catch-phrase with no meaning, because if you think these nice sensitive Poles would never do that again, you&#039;d effectively be giving them the key to that door to do it all over again, as they did throughout the ages, whenever they got the chance.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You want to give them a chance. You want to believe that they would never do what their fathers and grandfathers did. So you too, would wait too long. You too, want to believe whatever nice facade you are shown and believe in that instead of believing that they were raised by their fathers who were raised by their grandfathers and deep down, harbor the same hatreds. You would wait too long again, not believing that history could repeat. To you, &quot;Never Again&quot; is just a catch-phrase with no meaning, because if you think these nice sensitive Poles would never do that again, you&#039;d effectively be giving them the key to that door to do it all over again, as they did throughout the ages, whenever they got the chance.</p>
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		<title>By: Wieslawa Niziol</title>
		<link>http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/another-side-of-the-death-camp-debate/#comment-83010</link>
		<dc:creator>Wieslawa Niziol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jan 2013 18:10:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=90194#comment-83010</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Poles eagerly awaited Germans&quot; ? You realize that it is a complete nonsense and something that it is so easy to check that you should have done it before repeating it. Already in 1933 Poland was begging France to help her attack Germany and stop Hitler at the beginning of his power grab. The next years were full of negotiations with various countries (France,U K) in a search of an alliance against Hitler. Finally, Hitler did offer Poland an alliance in 1938. Against Soviet Union. Poles refused. Why did they do that if indeed that was what they wanted. Anyone saying that has no idea of Polish history or of what Germany meant to it sine 1795 !!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&quot;Poles eagerly awaited Germans&quot; ? You realize that it is a complete nonsense and something that it is so easy to check that you should have done it before repeating it. Already in 1933 Poland was begging France to help her attack Germany and stop Hitler at the beginning of his power grab. The next years were full of negotiations with various countries (France,U K) in a search of an alliance against Hitler. Finally, Hitler did offer Poland an alliance in 1938. Against Soviet Union. Poles refused. Why did they do that if indeed that was what they wanted. Anyone saying that has no idea of Polish history or of what Germany meant to it sine 1795 !!</p>
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		<title>By: Rivka Gornall Leiner</title>
		<link>http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/another-side-of-the-death-camp-debate/#comment-83008</link>
		<dc:creator>Rivka Gornall Leiner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jan 2013 17:35:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=90194#comment-83008</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[My in laws were from Poland and survived. In general they felt that the Poles were much worse than the Germans. They eagerly awaited the Germans until they found that they would not be considered equal to Germans. I believe that we owe a debt of gratitude to those righteous gentiles who resisted the Nazis and aided Jews but they were not the majority or even a large minority. OTOH, we cannot just let the entire history be rolled into hating the Germans. It cannot be forgotten that NONE of the gentile nations were there for us.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My in laws were from Poland and survived. In general they felt that the Poles were much worse than the Germans. They eagerly awaited the Germans until they found that they would not be considered equal to Germans. I believe that we owe a debt of gratitude to those righteous gentiles who resisted the Nazis and aided Jews but they were not the majority or even a large minority. OTOH, we cannot just let the entire history be rolled into hating the Germans. It cannot be forgotten that NONE of the gentile nations were there for us.</p>
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		<title>By: Sue Knight</title>
		<link>http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/another-side-of-the-death-camp-debate/#comment-82996</link>
		<dc:creator>Sue Knight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jan 2013 16:41:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=90194#comment-82996</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hello Marc, as the daughter of a Polish para who fought in WW2 - on the Allied Side, if I am still allowed to say that without incurring a visit from the Thought Police - I want to thank you for the fair and thoughtful article above.  Sadly, in the current media version of WW2 (as opposed to What Actually Happened), the Axis Powers seem to have become Poland, Poland and Poland.  Isn&#039;t the truth about WW2 that both sides did terrible, ungodly things, and that those nations that were able to  stay out of it and stay neutral did much better?  They don&#039;t come in for the vilification that us Poles do either.  It does reinforce my belief in the wisdom of being &quot;no part&quot; of the world, of not taking sides in its wars and politics. so at least I can make something positive out of this, rather than get angry and bitter.   Only thanks to the God of Abraham and his inspired word though.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Marc, as the daughter of a Polish para who fought in WW2 &#8211; on the Allied Side, if I am still allowed to say that without incurring a visit from the Thought Police &#8211; I want to thank you for the fair and thoughtful article above.  Sadly, in the current media version of WW2 (as opposed to What Actually Happened), the Axis Powers seem to have become Poland, Poland and Poland.  Isn&#039;t the truth about WW2 that both sides did terrible, ungodly things, and that those nations that were able to  stay out of it and stay neutral did much better?  They don&#039;t come in for the vilification that us Poles do either.  It does reinforce my belief in the wisdom of being &quot;no part&quot; of the world, of not taking sides in its wars and politics. so at least I can make something positive out of this, rather than get angry and bitter.   Only thanks to the God of Abraham and his inspired word though.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/another-side-of-the-death-camp-debate/#comment-82994</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jan 2013 15:45:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=90194#comment-82994</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Marc Goldberg, your piece is quite fair in contrast to that of Zahava Englard&#039;s &quot;The Death Camp Debate&quot;. Still, why do some still wrongfully hold &#039;Poles&#039; (Polish Catholics) accountable on an equal level as accomplices during the Holocaust to that of the Germans? It&#039;s historically incorrect, and not accurate.

As who is to truly blame for the Holocaust in occupied Poland during WWII, I suggest you read a very objective opinion by Adam Michnik titled, &quot;Poles and the Jews: How Deep the Guilt?&quot; in the NY Times a while ago when the Jedwabne incident was being debated. He is a Polish Jew residing in Poland, former Solidarity activist, and is the Editor-in-Chief of Poland&#039;s largest daily, &quot;Gazeta Wyborcza&quot; in Warsaw.

Link: http://www.nytimes.com/2001/03/17/arts/poles-and-the-jews-how-deep-the-guilt.html

Some excerpts:

&quot;Do Poles, along with Germans, bear guilt for the Holocaust? It is hard to imagine a more absurd claim.

Not a single Polish family was spared by Hitler and Stalin. The two totalitarian dictatorships obliterated three million Poles and three million Polish citizens classified as Jews by the Nazis.

Poland was the first country to oppose Hitler&#039;s demands and the first to stand against his aggression. Poland never had a Quisling. No Polish regiment fought on behalf of the Third Reich. Betrayed by the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact, Poles fought alongside the anti-Nazi forces from the first day until the last. And inside Poland armed resistance to the German occupation was widespread.

During Hitler&#039;s occupation, the Polish nationalistic and anti-Semitic right didn&#039;t collaborate with the Nazis, as the right wing did elsewhere in Europe, but actively participated in the anti-Hitler undergound. Polish anti-Semites fought against Hitler, and some of them even rescued Jews, though this was punishable by death.

Thus we have a singularly Polish paradox: on occupied Polish soil, a person could be an anti-Semite, a hero of the resistance and a savior of Jews.

But I am also a Jew who feels a deep brotherhood with those who were murdered as Jews. From this perspective, I assert that whoever tries to remove the crime in Jedwabne from the context of its epoch, whoever uses this example to generalize that this is how only the Poles and all the Poles behaved, is lying. And this lie is as repulsive as the lie that was told for many years about the crime in Jedwabne.

For these people who lost their lives saving Jews, I feel responsible, too. I feel guilty when I read so often in Polish and foreign newspapers about the murderers who killed Jews, and note the deep silence about those who rescued Jews. Do the murderers deserve more recognition than the righteous?&quot;

I suggest reading all of it, it&#039;s a very balanced view.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marc Goldberg, your piece is quite fair in contrast to that of Zahava Englard&#039;s &quot;The Death Camp Debate&quot;. Still, why do some still wrongfully hold &#039;Poles&#039; (Polish Catholics) accountable on an equal level as accomplices during the Holocaust to that of the Germans? It&#039;s historically incorrect, and not accurate.</p>
<p>As who is to truly blame for the Holocaust in occupied Poland during WWII, I suggest you read a very objective opinion by Adam Michnik titled, &quot;Poles and the Jews: How Deep the Guilt?&quot; in the NY Times a while ago when the Jedwabne incident was being debated. He is a Polish Jew residing in Poland, former Solidarity activist, and is the Editor-in-Chief of Poland&#039;s largest daily, &quot;Gazeta Wyborcza&quot; in Warsaw.</p>
<p>Link: <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2001/03/17/arts/poles-and-the-jews-how-deep-the-guilt.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.nytimes.com/2001/03/17/arts/poles-and-the-jews-how-deep-the-guilt.html</a></p>
<p>Some excerpts:</p>
<p>&quot;Do Poles, along with Germans, bear guilt for the Holocaust? It is hard to imagine a more absurd claim.</p>
<p>Not a single Polish family was spared by Hitler and Stalin. The two totalitarian dictatorships obliterated three million Poles and three million Polish citizens classified as Jews by the Nazis.</p>
<p>Poland was the first country to oppose Hitler&#039;s demands and the first to stand against his aggression. Poland never had a Quisling. No Polish regiment fought on behalf of the Third Reich. Betrayed by the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact, Poles fought alongside the anti-Nazi forces from the first day until the last. And inside Poland armed resistance to the German occupation was widespread.</p>
<p>During Hitler&#039;s occupation, the Polish nationalistic and anti-Semitic right didn&#039;t collaborate with the Nazis, as the right wing did elsewhere in Europe, but actively participated in the anti-Hitler undergound. Polish anti-Semites fought against Hitler, and some of them even rescued Jews, though this was punishable by death.</p>
<p>Thus we have a singularly Polish paradox: on occupied Polish soil, a person could be an anti-Semite, a hero of the resistance and a savior of Jews.</p>
<p>But I am also a Jew who feels a deep brotherhood with those who were murdered as Jews. From this perspective, I assert that whoever tries to remove the crime in Jedwabne from the context of its epoch, whoever uses this example to generalize that this is how only the Poles and all the Poles behaved, is lying. And this lie is as repulsive as the lie that was told for many years about the crime in Jedwabne.</p>
<p>For these people who lost their lives saving Jews, I feel responsible, too. I feel guilty when I read so often in Polish and foreign newspapers about the murderers who killed Jews, and note the deep silence about those who rescued Jews. Do the murderers deserve more recognition than the righteous?&quot;</p>
<p>I suggest reading all of it, it&#039;s a very balanced view.</p>
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		<title>By: Marc Goldberg</title>
		<link>http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/another-side-of-the-death-camp-debate/#comment-83006</link>
		<dc:creator>Marc Goldberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jan 2013 15:06:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=90194#comment-83006</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[marcgoldb@yahoo.co.uk]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="mailto:marcgoldb@yahoo.co.uk">marcgoldb@yahoo.co.uk</a></p>
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		<title>By: Marc Goldberg</title>
		<link>http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/another-side-of-the-death-camp-debate/#comment-83000</link>
		<dc:creator>Marc Goldberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jan 2013 15:05:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=90194#comment-83000</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think that the same can be said of all people everywhere whenever anything bad has happened and I fail to see how it counts against my argument.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that the same can be said of all people everywhere whenever anything bad has happened and I fail to see how it counts against my argument.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Taylor</title>
		<link>http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/another-side-of-the-death-camp-debate/#comment-82990</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Taylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jan 2013 09:29:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=90194#comment-82990</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hey, Marc, good buddy, it appears that your previous email is no longer operative...SO...(a) it was nice while it lasted, and (b) all the very best!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey, Marc, good buddy, it appears that your previous email is no longer operative&#8230;SO&#8230;(a) it was nice while it lasted, and (b) all the very best!</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Taylor</title>
		<link>http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/another-side-of-the-death-camp-debate/#comment-82992</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Taylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jan 2013 09:29:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=90194#comment-82992</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hey, Marc, good buddy, it appears that your previous email is no longer operative...SO...(a) it was nice while it lasted, and (b) all the very best!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey, Marc, good buddy, it appears that your previous email is no longer operative&#8230;SO&#8230;(a) it was nice while it lasted, and (b) all the very best!</p>
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		<title>By: Varda Epstein</title>
		<link>http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/another-side-of-the-death-camp-debate/#comment-81600</link>
		<dc:creator>Varda Epstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jan 2013 07:49:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=90194#comment-81600</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;I have met many Poles in my lifetime and have never been greeted with anything other than sensitivity and respect.&quot; That is why so many Jews waited too long to leave. They too, had never been treated with anything other than sensitivity and respect by their fellow Poles...until they weren&#039;t.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&quot;I have met many Poles in my lifetime and have never been greeted with anything other than sensitivity and respect.&quot; That is why so many Jews waited too long to leave. They too, had never been treated with anything other than sensitivity and respect by their fellow Poles&#8230;until they weren&#039;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex Salomon</title>
		<link>http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/another-side-of-the-death-camp-debate/#comment-81604</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Salomon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jan 2013 00:49:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=90194#comment-81604</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[never forget, right, but generalizations about this people or that people nowadays doesn´t help. Especially when all of the new EU countries, from the Baltics, Poland, Hungary, Chech Rep., Romania to Bulgaria help Erez Israel from ugly measures by shit-countries like Ireland, Norway, Denmark, Finland. AM Yisroel Chai.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>never forget, right, but generalizations about this people or that people nowadays doesn´t help. Especially when all of the new EU countries, from the Baltics, Poland, Hungary, Chech Rep., Romania to Bulgaria help Erez Israel from ugly measures by shit-countries like Ireland, Norway, Denmark, Finland. AM Yisroel Chai.</p>
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		<title>By: Meir Liberman</title>
		<link>http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/another-side-of-the-death-camp-debate/#comment-81602</link>
		<dc:creator>Meir Liberman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Dec 2012 22:08:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=90194#comment-81602</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There is no need to forget. What Marc is saying is that it is not fair to judge the children in the sins of their fathers.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is no need to forget. What Marc is saying is that it is not fair to judge the children in the sins of their fathers.</p>
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		<title>By: Meir Liberman</title>
		<link>http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/another-side-of-the-death-camp-debate/#comment-81598</link>
		<dc:creator>Meir Liberman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Dec 2012 22:08:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=90194#comment-81598</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It would be one thing to argue about whether groups gain anything...something you admit you cannot judge since you haven&#039;t done so. But the point you mention is such a &quot;BTW&quot; part of her message that it is amazing you found so much to write about.

I have no doubt that the Poles of today would have reacted the same as their parents and Grandparents of yesterday...but that hardly is going to affect the way I deal with them.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It would be one thing to argue about whether groups gain anything&#8230;something you admit you cannot judge since you haven&#039;t done so. But the point you mention is such a &quot;BTW&quot; part of her message that it is amazing you found so much to write about.</p>
<p>I have no doubt that the Poles of today would have reacted the same as their parents and Grandparents of yesterday&#8230;but that hardly is going to affect the way I deal with them.</p>
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