Comments on: Gaza, deja-vu all over again

By: John Yorke

John Yorke — Sat, 17 Nov 2012 02:24:01 +0000

Ravi Singh No agreement necessary, Ravi. Not anywhere or with anyone. That's been the whole problem all along. No agreements can be got. Or, if they have been in the past, then they haven't lasted very long.

This arrangement is a sort of 'fait accompl' and that's really all that this process needs to be.
Once it's put forward and adopted by those who would want to have it so, the idea is then to sit back and await developments. Which should be very rapid and compelling; almost amusingly entertaining if looked at from a certain angle. And a little humour, now and then, can often ease serious and weighty matters towards a very beneficial conclusion.

By: עמנואל שחף

עמנואל שחף — Fri, 16 Nov 2012 18:55:46 +0000

You wouldn't know a fact if you tripped over one. You just come up with the most amazing statements and declare them facts. And you know the future too. Amazing.

By: עמנואל שחף

עמנואל שחף — Fri, 16 Nov 2012 16:53:29 +0000

Shlomo, you really do not know what's going on. Netanyahu has no intention whatsoever to engagein a peace process, no matter what the Palestinian do or say. He just isn't a partner. Not surprisingly the Palestinians are upping the ante as well. I can tell you stories from Barak's time in the government as well. We are not a serious partner to negotiations. And the Palestinians ? I don't know yet, we have never really tested them. And believe me, I know.

By: Shlomo Toren

Shlomo Toren — Fri, 16 Nov 2012 15:47:13 +0000

Well thanks for the response anyway, but I disagree totally with your take on the "peace process". has never been serious about going anywhere with it and he has had several opportunities with three governments (not counting Livni). The PA's positions have just gotten less flexible with each round. Too blame Netanyahu is , well , like primary season stuff. Not serious.

By: עמנואל שחף

עמנואל שחף — Fri, 16 Nov 2012 09:52:26 +0000

I have no problem whatsoever not being liked – one of the ways of dealing with it is introspection. Maybe we just aren't likeable. Hey, but why should we introspect ? We are the strongest around here, let all the others introspect first…

By: Alex Abramov

Alex Abramov — Fri, 16 Nov 2012 00:03:39 +0000

עמנואל שחף , Why should we care if they want us around? They didn't want us around in 1929, before the occupation and settlements. We are not going to be liked. Deal with it.

By: עמנואל שחף

עמנואל שחף — Thu, 15 Nov 2012 23:00:57 +0000

Sarah Williams I guess you are very familiar with Hamas. 30 years ago people said the same thing about the PLO. Now they are saying it about Hamas. In another 20 years they'll say it abour Al-Khaida. That's if we listen to them.

By: עמנואל שחף

עמנואל שחף — Thu, 15 Nov 2012 22:59:05 +0000

Alex Abramov If you know the future, you're good !! They don't want us here ? Why should they ? Are we pleasant to be around with ?

By: Natan Epstein

Natan Epstein — Thu, 15 Nov 2012 15:40:12 +0000

עמנואל שחף hmmm so please tel me something i don't know ?

seems to me that the facts i presented here are good enough and anyone can research it … where as your dreams no one can research them …..

By: עמנואל שחף

עמנואל שחף — Thu, 15 Nov 2012 15:35:57 +0000

You only think you know. That's your problem. Never investigate, never doubt. You know it all. And that's scary.

By: עמנואל שחף

עמנואל שחף — Thu, 15 Nov 2012 15:18:47 +0000

Shlomo, you are talking operational details which aren't relevant – I totally agree with you that if Israel would decide to "clean up" she could. It the quiet afterwards would last a month, to three month and we would get to "normal" again. There is no military solution to this and nobody serious claims there is. So we are left with at least 2 alternatives: Do nothing which means every once in a while we have to do a big or small clean up (it's called "managing the conflict") or else, try to negotiate an agreement. The GOI has not done what you claim "act responsibly". The GOI's mode of operation is not to advance the peace process no matter what and any seasoned intelligence officer looking at this from the outside will tell you so. Sure, the Palestinians do their share but we are certainly acting as if we do not really need an agreement unless we get it at the exact terms we insist on. And some of them are ridiculous. All the Palestinians have to do is wait. They will only gain from our intransigence.

By: Sarah Williams

Sarah Williams — Thu, 15 Nov 2012 10:54:50 +0000

עמנואל שחף You seem to think that there is a solution. You're wrong. You cannot talk to Hamas whose raison d'etre is the killing of all Jews and conquest of Israel. "Lefty moon bat" is an accurate description because you are incapable of recognizing genocidal, revanchist hatred. You had your chance with Oslo (and it didn't work because it's first requirement was a cessation of terror–which clearly NEVER happened.
)

By: Alex Abramov

Alex Abramov — Wed, 14 Nov 2012 23:03:51 +0000

עמנואל שחף "I'd love to know why you think this time it'll work. I guess if it doesn't work this time you'll say that 1) it wan't executed properly or 2) the world didn't let us finish the job, what will it be "

Replace "world" in point 2 with "right-wingers" and we get your own arguments for the failure of Oslo and why we should try again.

Sorry mate, there will be no peace. They don't want us here, no matter how much you give and plead.

By: Dov Blair Epstein

Dov Blair Epstein — Wed, 14 Nov 2012 17:18:36 +0000

i expected you to say that….in Judaism, a foreign concept to your mind if ever there was,"Our Sages taught that an aide or preserver of wisdom is silence (siyag l’chochma – shtika). This is true on a most basic level in that a person who is always talking is only spewing forth what he already knows (or pretends to know). But since he’s so busy talking, he’ll never hear or understand what he’s talking about from other perspectives. A person who listens more than he speaks will always be learning something new. In this way, silence aides the acquisition of knowledge."

By: Shlomo Toren

Shlomo Toren — Wed, 14 Nov 2012 16:35:57 +0000

Your argument seems to be based on several fallacies.

Let's start with the government's response that has been very limited, yet not very successful. The government knows that a massive ground operation would be over-kill and so limits itself to targeting warehouses, launching sites and tunnels. The real threat is a return to targeted attacks against the Hamas leadership or targeting their property. That might work to some extent…..at least on the short run. So IMO the government's response has been responsible and steady and there is no room for your criticism there. As for the so called "peace process", the government has also been acting responsible and the fact that negotiations are not taking place is because Abbas isn't willing to commit to anything. As for Turkey, Turkey is more interested in silly show trials for IDF personal than in improving relations with Israel. Erdogan has adopted a policy of "beat the Jews, Save Turkey", and there is little benefit to Israel in groveling at his feet.

In short, you are totally not grounded in reality.

Now, why can't Israel do another CAST LEAD? First, I believe she could but, as you see from above, Israel (under Netanyahu) doesn't want to. Second, the situation today is different than in December 2007. The Moslem Brotherhood rules Egypt, 0bama is president (not GWB2 as a lame duck), and the Arab world is in utter disorder. Third, Israel, (boker tov) has the Iron Dome system which takes much of the sting out of the rocket attacks. Forth, CAST LEAD wasn't much of a success because of the incompetency of the Israeli government then. The world saw what a ground operation looks like in Gaza and would prefer a different solution now.

None of the above has anything to do about Israel-PA negotiations – there are all external to them. Even if the PA and Israel were talking it is doubtful that there would be much support for another CAST LEAD. At most Israel will eventually start picking off Hamas leadership (which some how has taken to heart the advise of "leading from behind" and made it into "leading in hiding").

SO thank you for your cogent advice. It reminds us all of the wonderful advice Sharon received in 2005 or what Rabin received in 1996. I'm sure Yachimovitch knows what such advice is worth and if she has any smarts she will steer far from it.

We have already learned our lessons, but thanks anyway.