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	<title>Comments on: I shook the hand that blessed Barack Obama</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/i-shook-the-hand-that-blessed-barack-obama/</link>
	<description>The Marketplace of Ideas</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 19 Jun 2013 00:56:59 +0300</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/i-shook-the-hand-that-blessed-barack-obama/#comment-92312</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Feb 2013 02:19:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=99118#comment-92312</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Shaking hands?  &#039;denies her the ability to freely practise Judaism&#039;? She is 100% free to practise Judaism in Israel. She is free to build a synagogue and a school etc. She is not entitled to a govt salary as a parish clergy  of the established faith. She is free to perform marriages, as long as the couple also have a private halachic marriage, much as the French have first a civil and then a religious marriage. She is free to stand for office in elections and people are free to vote for her party. There were about 35 political parties in the most recent Israeli election.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shaking hands?  &#039;denies her the ability to freely practise Judaism&#039;? She is 100% free to practise Judaism in Israel. She is free to build a synagogue and a school etc. She is not entitled to a govt salary as a parish clergy  of the established faith. She is free to perform marriages, as long as the couple also have a private halachic marriage, much as the French have first a civil and then a religious marriage. She is free to stand for office in elections and people are free to vote for her party. There were about 35 political parties in the most recent Israeli election.</p>
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		<title>By: Glenn Perlman</title>
		<link>http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/i-shook-the-hand-that-blessed-barack-obama/#comment-92084</link>
		<dc:creator>Glenn Perlman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2013 19:35:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=99118#comment-92084</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I was 19 years old when (as an American) I met my first religious (orthodox) rabbi and became religious myself. It was the hypocracy of non-religious Judaism that made me recoil from it and sent me searching for something real.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was 19 years old when (as an American) I met my first religious (orthodox) rabbi and became religious myself. It was the hypocracy of non-religious Judaism that made me recoil from it and sent me searching for something real.</p>
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		<title>By: Glenn Perlman</title>
		<link>http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/i-shook-the-hand-that-blessed-barack-obama/#comment-92082</link>
		<dc:creator>Glenn Perlman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2013 19:27:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=99118#comment-92082</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This article does not show how “incredible” Ms Brous is, but how incredibly ignorant and childish Tzvi Graetz is. He sounds like some teenager who shook the hand of a rock and roll star and tells the world that he will never wash his hand again. The only thing that keeps “reform rabbis” in business is that their congregants know even less about Judaism than they do. There is no “G-d of Love” in Judaism; this is 1960’s groovy, love, and peace stuff. Bob Dylan, Abby Hoffman and John Lennon are not the founders of Judaism any more than Ms Bours is a rabbi. 
If there were over six million Jews in the US in the early seventies and today they number under five million it is because of people like Bours and Greatz that have paved the way by telling Jews that Judaism is a civil rights movement and thus there is no difference between Jews and non-Jews.
In Israel you are either religious or secular the idea of secular “rabbis” just doesn’t make sense, you dig, Tzvi Graetz?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This article does not show how “incredible” Ms Brous is, but how incredibly ignorant and childish Tzvi Graetz is. He sounds like some teenager who shook the hand of a rock and roll star and tells the world that he will never wash his hand again. The only thing that keeps “reform rabbis” in business is that their congregants know even less about Judaism than they do. There is no “G-d of Love” in Judaism; this is 1960’s groovy, love, and peace stuff. Bob Dylan, Abby Hoffman and John Lennon are not the founders of Judaism any more than Ms Bours is a rabbi.<br />
If there were over six million Jews in the US in the early seventies and today they number under five million it is because of people like Bours and Greatz that have paved the way by telling Jews that Judaism is a civil rights movement and thus there is no difference between Jews and non-Jews.<br />
In Israel you are either religious or secular the idea of secular “rabbis” just doesn’t make sense, you dig, Tzvi Graetz?</p>
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		<title>By: Freddie Stoutzker</title>
		<link>http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/i-shook-the-hand-that-blessed-barack-obama/#comment-91924</link>
		<dc:creator>Freddie Stoutzker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2013 10:26:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=99118#comment-91924</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Y don&#039;t we all move a few hundred miles to saudi arabia where we would all be perseceuted for being jewish]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Y don&#039;t we all move a few hundred miles to saudi arabia where we would all be perseceuted for being jewish</p>
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		<title>By: Jay Yisrael Rosenberg</title>
		<link>http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/i-shook-the-hand-that-blessed-barack-obama/#comment-91920</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay Yisrael Rosenberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2013 09:57:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=99118#comment-91920</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Harvey, please be careful. My grievance has nothing to do with a value judgment of people, saying who is and who isn&#039;t a BETTER Jew. This is about being true to an ancient, developing process called Judaism.

I also love and embrace diversity. But diversity must exist within agreed upon boundaries, or values become meaningless. And no, I hadn&#039;t heard the idea that the Torah at Sinai was given at a level beyond language. I have heard the opposite: the very world we live in is an emanation from HaShem that is based upon the letters of the Hebrew alphabet (see the book, Sefer Yetzira, attributed to Avraham Avinu).

And yes, I must admit that I am angry here, because I feel that I was cheated as a child and young adult precisely by these alternate &#039;streams&#039; of Judaism. I see the author of this article and the &#039;rabbis&#039; that he refers to as people who are still trying - willingly or unknowingly - to mislead the Jewish nation. 

But I am less frustrated with individuals, and more so with the basic concept of reform and conservative Judaism in general. I was raised in the conservative movement, where I received my bar-mitzvah. My family then joined a reform temple in my community. I always felt in the limited involvement I did have with Judaism, the authority figures in the temple were hiding something from me and my equally-ignorant peers. Our Hebrew school teachers talked about a religion that had commandments in it, but no-one I knew could tell me what those commandments were and why they were important. No-one I knew BELIEVED in the importance of a system of commandments. 

Almost by accident, I came to Israel and connected with the life-giving energy-filled cornucopia of Normative (&#039;Orthodox&#039;) Judaism. Today, 25 years later,  I cringe when I hear people telling me that their own understandings of Judaism - bereft of any real comprehension of and connection to the genuine, holistic coherent tradition - is Judaism itself. They do not realize that Judaism is at is core a unfolding process based on the idea that Torah is really from Sinai, and binding for us and our descendants for all time.

The radical in me shouts: &quot;Stop! Stop with the falsehoods, the window dressing of our faith, &#039;rabbinic&#039; leadership that substitutes personal and foreign ideologies for genuine tradition.&quot; What they are trying to pass off as Judaism is really a form of intellectual robbery.

So I do have a considerable chip on my shoulder, I guess. Now you know why.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Harvey, please be careful. My grievance has nothing to do with a value judgment of people, saying who is and who isn&#039;t a BETTER Jew. This is about being true to an ancient, developing process called Judaism.</p>
<p>I also love and embrace diversity. But diversity must exist within agreed upon boundaries, or values become meaningless. And no, I hadn&#039;t heard the idea that the Torah at Sinai was given at a level beyond language. I have heard the opposite: the very world we live in is an emanation from HaShem that is based upon the letters of the Hebrew alphabet (see the book, Sefer Yetzira, attributed to Avraham Avinu).</p>
<p>And yes, I must admit that I am angry here, because I feel that I was cheated as a child and young adult precisely by these alternate &#039;streams&#039; of Judaism. I see the author of this article and the &#039;rabbis&#039; that he refers to as people who are still trying &#8211; willingly or unknowingly &#8211; to mislead the Jewish nation. </p>
<p>But I am less frustrated with individuals, and more so with the basic concept of reform and conservative Judaism in general. I was raised in the conservative movement, where I received my bar-mitzvah. My family then joined a reform temple in my community. I always felt in the limited involvement I did have with Judaism, the authority figures in the temple were hiding something from me and my equally-ignorant peers. Our Hebrew school teachers talked about a religion that had commandments in it, but no-one I knew could tell me what those commandments were and why they were important. No-one I knew BELIEVED in the importance of a system of commandments. </p>
<p>Almost by accident, I came to Israel and connected with the life-giving energy-filled cornucopia of Normative (&#039;Orthodox&#039;) Judaism. Today, 25 years later,  I cringe when I hear people telling me that their own understandings of Judaism &#8211; bereft of any real comprehension of and connection to the genuine, holistic coherent tradition &#8211; is Judaism itself. They do not realize that Judaism is at is core a unfolding process based on the idea that Torah is really from Sinai, and binding for us and our descendants for all time.</p>
<p>The radical in me shouts: &quot;Stop! Stop with the falsehoods, the window dressing of our faith, &#039;rabbinic&#039; leadership that substitutes personal and foreign ideologies for genuine tradition.&quot; What they are trying to pass off as Judaism is really a form of intellectual robbery.</p>
<p>So I do have a considerable chip on my shoulder, I guess. Now you know why.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay Yisrael Rosenberg</title>
		<link>http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/i-shook-the-hand-that-blessed-barack-obama/#comment-91922</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay Yisrael Rosenberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2013 09:31:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=99118#comment-91922</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mr. Cotsen: you are entirely correct. It defies belief, because it is a LIE. 

You are repeating a libelous falsehood that people, often Jews themselves, spread about Israel. Perhaps if you were to have a little closer look, i.e., if you lived here rather than in that great Jewishly-friendly place, the &#039;United Kingdom&#039; - you would have a chance to develop a different view that is more in tune with reality.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Cotsen: you are entirely correct. It defies belief, because it is a LIE. </p>
<p>You are repeating a libelous falsehood that people, often Jews themselves, spread about Israel. Perhaps if you were to have a little closer look, i.e., if you lived here rather than in that great Jewishly-friendly place, the &#039;United Kingdom&#039; &#8211; you would have a chance to develop a different view that is more in tune with reality.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Cotsen</title>
		<link>http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/i-shook-the-hand-that-blessed-barack-obama/#comment-91918</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Cotsen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2013 01:10:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=99118#comment-91918</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It defies belief that Israel is one of the few countries in the world where all Jews are not able to freely practice their religion. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It defies belief that Israel is one of the few countries in the world where all Jews are not able to freely practice their religion. </p>
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		<title>By: Mansoor Elie Alyeshmerni</title>
		<link>http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/i-shook-the-hand-that-blessed-barack-obama/#comment-91804</link>
		<dc:creator>Mansoor Elie Alyeshmerni</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2013 20:49:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=99118#comment-91804</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Denies her the ability to practice Judaism&quot; is the wrong focus. We have problems but thankfully this is not one of them. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&quot;Denies her the ability to practice Judaism&quot; is the wrong focus. We have problems but thankfully this is not one of them. </p>
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		<title>By: Mansoor Elie Alyeshmerni</title>
		<link>http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/i-shook-the-hand-that-blessed-barack-obama/#comment-91806</link>
		<dc:creator>Mansoor Elie Alyeshmerni</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2013 20:49:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=99118#comment-91806</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Denies her the ability to practice Judaism&quot; is the wrong focus. We have problems but thankfully this is not one of them. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&quot;Denies her the ability to practice Judaism&quot; is the wrong focus. We have problems but thankfully this is not one of them. </p>
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		<title>By: Finally Free</title>
		<link>http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/i-shook-the-hand-that-blessed-barack-obama/#comment-91812</link>
		<dc:creator>Finally Free</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2013 20:31:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=99118#comment-91812</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Point of detail (Hebrew grammar): it may be El-him but in the &quot;smikhut&quot; it IS correctly El-hei _(something)_  Like El-hei Avraham Yitzhav veYaakov (G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob). 
Interestingly, in Jewish tradition, when one appeals to G-d quality of justice, one uses El-him, while when one appeals to His quality of mercy one uses Ad-nai (my L-RD). So what to make of El-hei Ahava indeed? (&quot;G-d is love&quot; is of course a concept that appeals to any Christian --- which is probably why she chose to use it.) 
Why do we use both names? Again our sages of old: Because a world built on stern justice alone cannot endure, but neither can a world only built on mercy. Only the mixture will endure.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Point of detail (Hebrew grammar): it may be El-him but in the &quot;smikhut&quot; it IS correctly El-hei _(something)_  Like El-hei Avraham Yitzhav veYaakov (G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob).<br />
Interestingly, in Jewish tradition, when one appeals to G-d quality of justice, one uses El-him, while when one appeals to His quality of mercy one uses Ad-nai (my L-RD). So what to make of El-hei Ahava indeed? (&quot;G-d is love&quot; is of course a concept that appeals to any Christian &#8212; which is probably why she chose to use it.)<br />
Why do we use both names? Again our sages of old: Because a world built on stern justice alone cannot endure, but neither can a world only built on mercy. Only the mixture will endure.</p>
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		<title>By: Finally Free</title>
		<link>http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/i-shook-the-hand-that-blessed-barack-obama/#comment-91810</link>
		<dc:creator>Finally Free</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2013 20:17:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=99118#comment-91810</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sheesh. You seriously think that Abraham Geiger, Samuel Holdheim, et al.  started their movement out of concern for the participation of women or the rights of those practicing what just about EVERYBODY in the early 19th Century (especially the non-Jews around them) considered deviant behavior? As for what the non-Jews thought, now yes, that was VERY HIGH on the agenda, even higher than what the G-d of Israel thought. And some changes they brought even made sense, and one or two even were grudgingly adopted by the Orthodox themselves (a sermon in the vernacular). But others went so far off the rails (abolishing dietary laws entirely, proposed abolition of circumcision and moving the Sabbath to Sunday) that three counter-responses occurred. (a) Zechariah Frankel founded a new seminary that tried to forge a middle road, out of which came eventually the Conservative movement; (b) S. R. Hirsch tried to make the case that one could fuse modernity with Torah Judaism and thus became a father (perhaps THE father) of modern-Orthodoxy; (c) of course, the more reactionary Orthodox saw all this as proof that nothing good could ever come from trying to be modern and retreated in their own world entirely.
An Israeli coworker of mine (born in Russia) regards both Reform and chareidism as &quot;different expressions of diaspora neurosis&quot;. I think she has a point. 

And yes, this radical type of 19th century &quot;classical German Reform&quot; (as it&#039;s called in the US) did exist, and it&#039;s basically died out as their congregations either assimilated entirely or demanded something with a bit more meat on the bones. I once had the dubious pleasure of being at such a service: it took me the better part of an hour to even realize I hadn&#039;t accidentally walked into a Protestant Church. (The fact that I was nearly the only person present under 65 and wearing a kipa should have told me something, I suppose ;))]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sheesh. You seriously think that Abraham Geiger, Samuel Holdheim, et al.  started their movement out of concern for the participation of women or the rights of those practicing what just about EVERYBODY in the early 19th Century (especially the non-Jews around them) considered deviant behavior? As for what the non-Jews thought, now yes, that was VERY HIGH on the agenda, even higher than what the G-d of Israel thought. And some changes they brought even made sense, and one or two even were grudgingly adopted by the Orthodox themselves (a sermon in the vernacular). But others went so far off the rails (abolishing dietary laws entirely, proposed abolition of circumcision and moving the Sabbath to Sunday) that three counter-responses occurred. (a) Zechariah Frankel founded a new seminary that tried to forge a middle road, out of which came eventually the Conservative movement; (b) S. R. Hirsch tried to make the case that one could fuse modernity with Torah Judaism and thus became a father (perhaps THE father) of modern-Orthodoxy; (c) of course, the more reactionary Orthodox saw all this as proof that nothing good could ever come from trying to be modern and retreated in their own world entirely.<br />
An Israeli coworker of mine (born in Russia) regards both Reform and chareidism as &quot;different expressions of diaspora neurosis&quot;. I think she has a point. </p>
<p>And yes, this radical type of 19th century &quot;classical German Reform&quot; (as it&#039;s called in the US) did exist, and it&#039;s basically died out as their congregations either assimilated entirely or demanded something with a bit more meat on the bones. I once had the dubious pleasure of being at such a service: it took me the better part of an hour to even realize I hadn&#039;t accidentally walked into a Protestant Church. (The fact that I was nearly the only person present under 65 and wearing a kipa should have told me something, I suppose <img src='http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> )</p>
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		<title>By: Finally Free</title>
		<link>http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/i-shook-the-hand-that-blessed-barack-obama/#comment-91808</link>
		<dc:creator>Finally Free</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2013 20:02:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=99118#comment-91808</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The &quot;thousands of people cannot be wrong&quot; fallacy. By this criterion all Jews should (r&quot;l) convert to Xianity? 
Nobody says she&#039;s bad at marketing or that there isn&#039;t a market for what she is selling. That has zilch to do with whether what she is selling is in fact Judaism rather than liberal claptrap in a Jewish sauce. 
]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The &quot;thousands of people cannot be wrong&quot; fallacy. By this criterion all Jews should (r&quot;l) convert to Xianity?<br />
Nobody says she&#039;s bad at marketing or that there isn&#039;t a market for what she is selling. That has zilch to do with whether what she is selling is in fact Judaism rather than liberal claptrap in a Jewish sauce. </p>
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		<title>By: Ben Needleman</title>
		<link>http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/i-shook-the-hand-that-blessed-barack-obama/#comment-91722</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Needleman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2013 13:50:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=99118#comment-91722</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[a) separation of religion and state is a must for all western democracies-it must be sought after always no matter how hard.
b) you clearly have no idea about the reform movement in Israel 
c) non ashkenazis dont have reform because none of the countries where mizrachim come from experienced the enlightenment and secularisation (except perhaps the netherlands)-thats why there is no reform amongst their communities]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>a) separation of religion and state is a must for all western democracies-it must be sought after always no matter how hard.<br />
b) you clearly have no idea about the reform movement in Israel<br />
c) non ashkenazis dont have reform because none of the countries where mizrachim come from experienced the enlightenment and secularisation (except perhaps the netherlands)-thats why there is no reform amongst their communities</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Needleman</title>
		<link>http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/i-shook-the-hand-that-blessed-barack-obama/#comment-91726</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Needleman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2013 13:47:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=99118#comment-91726</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[im glad you acknowledge orthodoxy&#039;s inherent bigotry]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>im glad you acknowledge orthodoxy&#039;s inherent bigotry</p>
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		<title>By: Finally Free</title>
		<link>http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/i-shook-the-hand-that-blessed-barack-obama/#comment-91720</link>
		<dc:creator>Finally Free</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2013 12:52:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=99118#comment-91720</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Keep on dreamin&#039;. Even arch-secularist firebrand Tommy Lapid (father of Yair) publicly said that he thought a total separation of religion and state in Israel is &quot;neither possible nor even desirable&quot;. As for legitimizing &#039;reform Judaism&#039;: I hate to break it to you, but if you subtracted the expat Americans from the few reform congregations I know in Israel, they&#039;d be down to five people and a dog (which even they don&#039;t count for minyan [yet]). Masorti has a bit more success --- but the Israeli version would be regarded as &quot;almost orthodox&quot; in the USA and elsewhere, except that they are a bit more open to people less than strictly observant than Ashkenazi Orthodox congregations typically are. (&quot;Sephardi&quot; Orthodox congregations have a long tradition of tolerating people of varying observance levels --- one reason why nothing like Reform ever even arose in their communities.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Keep on dreamin&#039;. Even arch-secularist firebrand Tommy Lapid (father of Yair) publicly said that he thought a total separation of religion and state in Israel is &quot;neither possible nor even desirable&quot;. As for legitimizing &#039;reform Judaism&#039;: I hate to break it to you, but if you subtracted the expat Americans from the few reform congregations I know in Israel, they&#039;d be down to five people and a dog (which even they don&#039;t count for minyan [yet]). Masorti has a bit more success &#8212; but the Israeli version would be regarded as &quot;almost orthodox&quot; in the USA and elsewhere, except that they are a bit more open to people less than strictly observant than Ashkenazi Orthodox congregations typically are. (&quot;Sephardi&quot; Orthodox congregations have a long tradition of tolerating people of varying observance levels &#8212; one reason why nothing like Reform ever even arose in their communities.)</p>
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