Comments on: The other delegitimization

By: Francine Miriam Gordon

Francine Miriam Gordon — Fri, 22 Mar 2013 01:58:16 +0000

Thank you for an excellent piece. I speak about the next stage of Zionism being about helping Israel strengthen religious freedom and gender equality in its society, through our participation in social change movements. WOW is part of what I call the modern Jewish democracy movement.

By: Devora Mason

Devora Mason — Sun, 17 Mar 2013 14:51:52 +0000

"There is no point at all to all of the Birthright trips, all of the UJA missions and all of the aliyah emissaries in the world, if with one hand we are beckoning Diaspora Jews – our staunchest supporters – to come closer, and with the other, we slap them away."
It's possible that initially those trips and missions were funded with the intent to bring Jews closer to Judaism, which ultimately meant, orthodoxy. That has obviously not been the case which is why your point is so valid. Good piece Rina.

By: Devora Mason

Devora Mason — Sun, 17 Mar 2013 14:51:52 +0000

By: Yonatan Shaked

Yonatan Shaked — Sun, 17 Mar 2013 11:31:49 +0000

Glenn! Why put people in boxes? "According to the reform and conservative…" You said yourself that you know non-religious people who are nicer, kinder, and more trustworthy than some 'very religious' people" which proves that the concepts, orthodox Judaism, does not make them a better people.
As I said before, otherwise they would not fill the jails just like everyone else…

It is stated that the Jews were an Am Oref – They still are! People are people and it's nothing to do with the framework they live in; just because someone identifies as Reform or Conservative does not mean they eat cheeseburgers in the same way as someone who identifies as Orthodox does not mean he is a saint! After all, from what you are saying one would expect orthodox Jews to be saints.

You are right insofar as I am talking about "certain people" as opposed to "the concept" because of precisely that! It is the people who do not keep the concept! I think Rina Ne'eman is a nice person – even if she has a shoe addiction, and she also writes nicely and she also makes some sense! I would prefer her as a friend over a lot of self-righteous orthodox Jews who claim that they are so wonderful, so perfect, so abiding by the concept!
There are 613 mitzvot and they cannot all be kept. It is a guide to live by but nobody is perfect. Neither was King David. Even Moses was prevented from entering the Promised Land. Wouldn't it be a wonderful world if the Jews were "Jews" and not put into boxes? There would be peace amongst Jews! Is that possible?

By: Yonatan Shaked

Yonatan Shaked — Sun, 17 Mar 2013 11:31:49 +0000

By: Glenn Perlman

Glenn Perlman — Sun, 17 Mar 2013 01:22:31 +0000

Yonatan, I agree with most of what you said. I'd like to clear up or at least explain the things that you criticized me for. First of all I don't consider myself better than any one. Secondly I didn't even state if I'm religious or not. Thirdly, according to the reform and conservative movements (not according to me} they don't follow Halacha. Fourthly, I've stated a number of times that all Jews are equal and can do as they please. My only point is to have an honest interaction. A discussion about Judaism based on Judaism which is Jewish law and tradition and not one based on sayings like; "the 85% of Jews who don't follow Jewish Law are the majority and the majority rules," or "a lot of rabbis who follow Jewish Law don't dress in modern garb, haven't served in the army and are sometimes not even nice, so they shouldn't be in a position to regulate Jewish practice at the Kotel."
About my response to Tzvi, by telling him to "enjoy his cheese burger," this was a jab not an insult. The conservative movement allows driving a car on Shabbat which is a much more serious offense than eating a cheeseburger (which I don't in truth know in the conservatives allow or not).
I would also like to add that if a goup of women decide that women's way to sanctify G-d's name is by putting on kippot, talit and taffilin and coming enmasse to the Kotel in other words fulfilling men's role, is wacky behaviour born of boredom and a lack of understanding the women's role in Judaism. I would consider a group that wants to sacrifice animals on an alter at the Kotel the same.

By: Yonatan Shaked

Yonatan Shaked — Sat, 16 Mar 2013 23:19:53 +0000

God gave the Torah to the people – i.e. The People, not to a religious people. Moses, a religious and spiritual man, one who who had a special connection with God had to COME DOWN to the people to convey the message; he had to come down to their level. In other words the Torah was given to every one to LIVE by, to make our lives better and our future a better one. It is a set of laws we should abide by.
The Torah is for everyone and one should not put people into "boxes" of this kind of Jew and that kind of Jew. We are ONE and when we start fitting into THAT category perhaps we will be a little more tolerant of others.
I don't wish to read/learn about reform Judaism – never have and never will! I don't even know what it is! However, there was a gentleman above (Tzvi) who mentioned that he is reform but he lays Tefilin and wears a kippa which is commendable but you go along and say "enjoy your cheeseburger" ??? THAT is not nice and why would you think he eats tref anyway? Why should you judge him or anyone? Why do you think you are better?
BTW sometimes – often in fact! – I wonder if orthodox Jews believe in God! The unusual thing about it is that Judaism is based more on doing, i.e. DOING the taryag mitzvot and less on belief in God.
Shavua Tov

By: Glenn Perlman

Glenn Perlman — Sat, 16 Mar 2013 23:07:29 +0000

Dov, The things that I said about the conservtive and reform are matters of historical fact. In the age of Internet you can easily look them up. What I mentioned about Israelis being indifferent to the conservative and reform are also true. Your attacking me because of most of the Haridi who don't serve in the army and the last elections have nothing to do with the article that we are responding to.

By: Glenn Perlman

Glenn Perlman — Sat, 16 Mar 2013 22:55:02 +0000

If you believed in G-d, you would know that he is the one who decides if there is peace or not. He is the one who gave us Jerusalem, to give it to the ones he does't want to have it is like spitting in his face, and this will not cause peace. Tzvi, "give G-d a chance."

By: Glenn Perlman

Glenn Perlman — Sat, 16 Mar 2013 22:45:41 +0000

Tzvi, once again, I repeat the question isn't if it is permitted or not. It's not a question of what as it is a question of where. It is permitted to sacrfice animals, but if some one were to do it at the Kotel, he too would be taken away. There are certain things that are concidered out of the norm and the kotel rabbi uses his discretion in these matters.

By: Glenn Perlman

Glenn Perlman — Sat, 16 Mar 2013 22:37:01 +0000

Yonatan, Your talking about certain people, I'm talking about concepts. I myself know non-religious people who are nicer, kinder, and more trustworthy than some "very religious" people I know. I no non Jews who can also fit into that category, so what? Judaism is based on a belief that G-d gave the Torah the the people of Israel at Mt. Sinai. According to surveys 40% of reform "rabbis" admit to not believing in G-d, (that does't mean that the other 60% do). If you look in the reform edition of a bible you will see in the appendix where they state that they don't neccessarily believe in G-d, but see the Bible as a source of history and inspiration. You can also fo into the reform web sites and read the same thing.

By: Rachelle Ehven

Rachelle Ehven — Fri, 15 Mar 2013 20:35:03 +0000

This is ironic – I recall that when I got married in Jerusalem, the rabbi who interviewed us at the Rabbinate to make the arrangements saw with a glance that we were not that religious and directed us to a more liberal-thinking rabbi who performed the ceremony. Once upon a time there WAS a more liberal attitude – no-one asked me to prove I am Jewish – they just accepted my word that I am and that was that. Those were the days when the Religious Affairs ministry was NOT in the hands of the Orthodox – perhaps with this new government we will see a bit of progress?

By: Joshua Moesch

Joshua Moesch — Fri, 15 Mar 2013 13:46:01 +0000

85% of world Jewry? 13-14 million Jews in the world. The reform movement represents what, less than 1.5 million and the conservative movement is much smaller. While probably only 2-3 million would be considered religiously observant in the Orthodox manner, MILLIONS more non-affiliated Jews participate with Chabad for Jewish lifecycle events.

By: Yonatan Shaked

Yonatan Shaked — Fri, 15 Mar 2013 12:39:08 +0000

I am also familiar with Jews who belong to orthodox shuls in the UK but they drive to the services on Yom Kippur!
And here in Israel I have come to know yet another kind of orthodox Jew in the slums of Israel; those who deal in drugs, steal, have family members in prison and women who are whores. My neighbour's little girl was raped and then murdered because of the drug connection.
I watch them from my window going to shul on Shabbat, I hear them cursing and I observe them in the way that they think they are the cat's whiskers.
It takes all kinds to make a world but even the orthodox are not a טלית שכולה תכלת

By: Tzvi Kahn

Tzvi Kahn — Fri, 15 Mar 2013 11:23:51 +0000

Yishai Kohen The Torah doesn't prohibit Jewish women from wearing a tallit or putting on tefillin. It doesn't require it, but it doesn't prohibit it either. These women chose to express their Judaism in that matter. It is an authentic Jewish expression of their identity. A positive deed.

I was at the Kotel on Rosh Hodesh. There was a group of ultra-Orthodox (= Haredi) Jews who sang very loudly in order to purposely interrupt the prayer of the women. One guy even blew a shofar several times, & I'm sure that you're aware that a shofar isn't blown on Rosh Hodesh Nissan. Is all this what you'd call a man's positive deed?