Comments on: The other women of the Wall http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-other-women-of-the-wall/ The Marketplace of Ideas Tue, 21 May 2013 10:05:22 +0300 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.5.1 By: Sarah Notis http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-other-women-of-the-wall/#comment-115294 Sarah Notis Tue, 16 Apr 2013 17:27:59 +0000 http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=103760#comment-115294 ^THIS.

]]> By: John Stevenson http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-other-women-of-the-wall/#comment-100972 John Stevenson Thu, 28 Feb 2013 19:24:18 +0000 http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=103760#comment-100972 Aaron Sarah I am not funny. Don't patronize me. It is you, not me, who confuses halacha with hashkafa. When you write "Altering the Torah" you refer to, amongst other things, the prayer of WOW. This is not the case: their prayer is Halachic. You oppose it because it is against your hashkafa. You present your hashkafa regarding WOW prayer as halacha and accuse these women of "altering the Torah." You argue that they place themselves above God only because their hashkafa is different to yours. Biblical exegesis and interpretation of Rabbinic texts leads to the ongoing development of Halacha. Your concept that Halacha exists in a vacuum and that one interprets Torah and Rabbinic texts in accordance with pure, objective Halacha is simply non-sensical.

And yes, Israel, through the esteemed office of Rabbi Shmuel Rabinovitch, "Rabbi of the Kotel," who publicly declared that the E. coli and other bacteria found in the siddurim on both sides of the mechitza was the result of women's tears, sets religious standards for the Kotel. I AM AGAINST THIS. His modesty police accost women and young girls (I saw an 8 year old girl being accosted by them – is it normal to sexualize a young girl like that? That perversion was worse than any piece of clothing I have seen worn at the Kotel!) to cover up according to his Haredi standards of modesty. His modesty police stop singing of student tourist groups trying to praise Hashem at the site (in the plaza, not the prayer, area). I have almost been arrested for daring to intervene when his modesty police harassed a poor woman who removed her modesty shawl in the plaza area (not in the prayer precinct). His latest initiatives has led to women being banned from even bringing in tallitot to the Kotel Plaza. Of course there should be a code of reverence and basic modesty at the site. My issue is that a Haredi Rabbi, who is paid by my taxes, and whose minions have embarrassed, shamed and offended countless girls and women, is the one who is reponsible for setting these standards, and is working as an agent of the state. When did a tallit (or a tank-top) become more important than derech eretz and kvod habriyot? Is this what Judaism has to offer in 2013?

How can a woman be arrested for praying in the Jewish state in 2013? Israel – the only country in the world which denies Jews freedom of worship, even to the point of arresting them. Are you really okay with this?

]]> By: John Stevenson http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-other-women-of-the-wall/#comment-100974 John Stevenson Thu, 28 Feb 2013 19:24:18 +0000 http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=103760#comment-100974 Aaron Sarah I am not funny. Don't patronize me. It is you, not me, who confuses halacha with hashkafa. When you write "Altering the Torah" you refer to, amongst other things, the prayer of WOW. This is not the case: their prayer is Halachic. You oppose it because it is against your hashkafa. You present your hashkafa regarding WOW prayer as halacha and accuse these women of "altering the Torah." You argue that they place themselves above God only because their hashkafa is different to yours. Biblical exegesis and interpretation of Rabbinic texts leads to the ongoing development of Halacha. Your concept that Halacha exists in a vacuum and that one interprets Torah and Rabbinic texts in accordance with pure, objective Halacha is simply non-sensical.

And yes, Israel, through the esteemed office of Rabbi Shmuel Rabinovitch, "Rabbi of the Kotel," who publicly declared that the E. coli and other bacteria found in the siddurim on both sides of the mechitza was the result of women's tears, sets religious standards for the Kotel. I AM AGAINST THIS. His modesty police accost women and young girls (I saw an 8 year old girl being accosted by them – is it normal to sexualize a young girl like that? That perversion was worse than any piece of clothing I have seen worn at the Kotel!) to cover up according to his Haredi standards of modesty. His modesty police stop singing of student tourist groups trying to praise Hashem at the site (in the plaza, not the prayer, area). I have almost been arrested for daring to intervene when his modesty police harassed a poor woman who removed her modesty shawl in the plaza area (not in the prayer precinct). His latest initiatives has led to women being banned from even bringing in tallitot to the Kotel Plaza. Of course there should be a code of reverence and basic modesty at the site. My issue is that a Haredi Rabbi, who is paid by my taxes, and whose minions have embarrassed, shamed and offended countless girls and women, is the one who is reponsible for setting these standards, and is working as an agent of the state. When did a tallit (or a tank-top) become more important than derech eretz and kvod habriyot? Is this what Judaism has to offer in 2013?

How can a woman be arrested for praying in the Jewish state in 2013? Israel – the only country in the world which denies Jews freedom of worship, even to the point of arresting them. Are you really okay with this?

]]> By: Aaron Sarah http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-other-women-of-the-wall/#comment-99014 Aaron Sarah Wed, 27 Feb 2013 19:54:45 +0000 http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=103760#comment-99014 John you are funny, you confuse halacha with hashkafa. I try my best to follow halacha, which is what shapes my hashkafah. One places oneself above G-d when one chooses how to interpret (or ignore) parts of the Torah to suit one's wills and desires instead of according to halacha.

Women can do whatever they want, but don't confuse what women want with what is halachically permissible. Israel has set certain religious standards for certain religious areas. In fact, there is even the Robinson's arch, where women can pray in whatever garments they please. The kotel is the holiest openly accessible site we have today, so there remains a code of reverence and modesty appropriate to the site.

]]> By: Miriam Erez http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-other-women-of-the-wall/#comment-99012 Miriam Erez Wed, 27 Feb 2013 12:16:52 +0000 http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=103760#comment-99012 Instead of debating the "right" of women to pray at the Wall, we need to ask why the police are involved at all. Even those who oppose WOW should be viewing their activities as not police-worthy. Would we want the police chasing after all jaywalkers? Everyone walking around with a joint in her pocket? I wouldn't feel safe in such a city, and neither should you. I want the police, who are perpetually short-staffed as it is, to be putting their resources into fighting actual crime, don't you? All of you? Regardless of your religious views?

]]> By: John Stevenson http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-other-women-of-the-wall/#comment-98780 John Stevenson Tue, 26 Feb 2013 20:57:56 +0000 http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=103760#comment-98780 Aaron Sarah Women can do whatever they want. We live in a democracy (well, kind of). WOW prayer accords with Orthodox Halachic standards. I love your Halachic system – anything which another Jew does which is not in line with your hashkafa is him/her placing him/herself above God and therefore avoda zara. You, of course, worship God in absolute purity, according to your own hashkafa, which is, of course, objective and absolute Judaism. All your hashkafic opponents are idolaters. Only you know God's will. And obviously there is a process of Biblical exegesis and most texts aren't to be taken literally.

]]> By: John Stevenson http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-other-women-of-the-wall/#comment-98778 John Stevenson Tue, 26 Feb 2013 20:50:50 +0000 http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=103760#comment-98778 Yonatan Knickerbocker Please do not be rude to me Yonatan. I have not been rude to you. I understood that you were using the argument that surely everybody has red lines and therefore you are invited to have your own red lines, which place WOW prayer outside what you consider legitimate. Nonetheless, when you use this argument by raising the practice of avoda zara you do, in fact, make a comparison between WOW prayers and avoda zara. And regarding your second point: so what? You asked one worshipper and she turned out to be an arch-liberal whose red lines are very wide. What's your point?

]]> By: Aaron Sarah http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-other-women-of-the-wall/#comment-98776 Aaron Sarah Tue, 26 Feb 2013 14:20:50 +0000 http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=103760#comment-98776 The women who wear tallitot and teffillin may not do so today because in order to accept upon yourself more mitzvot than you are obligated (women are exempt from those mitzvot) you must first keep EVERY MITZVAH THAT APPLIES TO YOU, including modesty, Shabbat, kol isha (women not singing in front of men), etc.

And avoda zara is not always a reference to idols. Not everything in the Torah is meant to be taken literally; that is why we have halacha sefarim. Altering the Torah can be considered avoda zara because you are taking G-d's commands and choosing what you like whilst rejecting what you dislike, which means you are no longer worshipping G-d, as you are putting yourself above G-d by dictating what is right and wrong to you, ergo avoda zara. Think about it logically for a minute.

]]> By: Aaron Sarah http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-other-women-of-the-wall/#comment-98774 Aaron Sarah Tue, 26 Feb 2013 14:10:36 +0000 http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=103760#comment-98774 Leah is 100% correct.
Judaism isn't a religion that alters with time, it's a way of life that does not change with the rest of the world. Women have women's obligations, and men have men's.
But what's the use arguing the truth and relevance of halacha with people who are more interested in living the "reformed" and "modern" way of life?

]]> By: Daniel Solomon Sayani http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-other-women-of-the-wall/#comment-98378 Daniel Solomon Sayani Mon, 25 Feb 2013 16:28:40 +0000 http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=103760#comment-98378 If women want to daven in a tallit and tefillin, there is nothing halakhically which would bar them from doing so. In a free society, a minority divorced from everyday medina life should have no right to dictate policy for the masses. Banning women from davening in this way serves no other purpose than to drive a further wedge between them and Judaism, and between varying sectors of Israeli society. I believe that the best and only way to make all parties involved happy (and I believe Anat Hoffman herself said she would be amenable to this) would be to have separate hours for different groups on denominational lines. Allow Reform and Conservative groups designated times to have mixed worship and put the mehitza back up when they finish. And allow women to wear their tallitot whenever they want on the women's side (if the mehitza is intended to shield men's eyes from erva, why would they be looking at women whilst davening anyways? A tallit is also not a prutz beged, therefore, I see little legitimate objections.

]]> By: Daniel Solomon Sayani http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-other-women-of-the-wall/#comment-98380 Daniel Solomon Sayani Mon, 25 Feb 2013 16:28:40 +0000 http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=103760#comment-98380 If women want to daven in a tallit and tefillin, there is nothing halakhically which would bar them from doing so. In a free society, a minority divorced from everyday medina life should have no right to dictate policy for the masses. Banning women from davening in this way serves no other purpose than to drive a further wedge between them and Judaism, and between varying sectors of Israeli society. I believe that the best and only way to make all parties involved happy (and I believe Anat Hoffman herself said she would be amenable to this) would be to have separate hours for different groups on denominational lines. Allow Reform and Conservative groups designated times to have mixed worship and put the mehitza back up when they finish. And allow women to wear their tallitot whenever they want on the women's side (if the mehitza is intended to shield men's eyes from erva, why would they be looking at women whilst davening anyways? A tallit is also not a prutz beged, therefore, I see little legitimate objections.

]]> By: Daniel Solomon Sayani http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-other-women-of-the-wall/#comment-98382 Daniel Solomon Sayani Mon, 25 Feb 2013 16:28:40 +0000 http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=103760#comment-98382 If women want to daven in a tallit and tefillin, there is nothing halakhically which would bar them from doing so. In a free society, a minority divorced from everyday medina life should have no right to dictate policy for the masses. Banning women from davening in this way serves no other purpose than to drive a further wedge between them and Judaism, and between varying sectors of Israeli society. I believe that the best and only way to make all parties involved happy (and I believe Anat Hoffman herself said she would be amenable to this) would be to have separate hours for different groups on denominational lines. Allow Reform and Conservative groups designated times to have mixed worship and put the mehitza back up when they finish. And allow women to wear their tallitot whenever they want on the women's side (if the mehitza is intended to shield men's eyes from erva, why would they be looking at women whilst davening anyways? A tallit is also not a prutz beged, therefore, I see little legitimate objections.

]]> By: Yonatan Knickerbocker http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-other-women-of-the-wall/#comment-98030 Yonatan Knickerbocker Sun, 24 Feb 2013 01:26:53 +0000 http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=103760#comment-98030 Perhaps they are the largest denomination. What does that prove? Here in Israel, the vast majority of us respect traditional forms of worship. The majority of those defy classification, but the numbers more than measure up to American reformed numbers – and they live here. We are never going to respect religious practices that throw out the majority of the law and replace it with their own ideas.

]]> By: Yonatan Knickerbocker http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-other-women-of-the-wall/#comment-98028 Yonatan Knickerbocker Sun, 24 Feb 2013 01:15:56 +0000 http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=103760#comment-98028 Do try to employ your brain when reading someone's comment would you? I never said anything about the WOW performing avoda zara. I said we could choose to ignore someone doing so. It's a matter of where we draw the line.

You should know that I asked one of them recently if there was anything that someone else could do at the Kotel that might offend them. She replied that even if someone had an idol, as long as it was small she would have no problem with it. Do you see the problem now?

]]> By: Irene Rabinowitz http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-other-women-of-the-wall/#comment-97960 Irene Rabinowitz Sat, 23 Feb 2013 18:58:59 +0000 http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=103760#comment-97960 Leah – These forms of prayer for women at the Kotel are not mutually exclusive. When I entered the tunnels as part of a group in 2011, I was so moved by seeing women praying at what might be the kodesh hakodeshim. When I went to the Kotel in the women's section to pray for the first time in '09, I was overwhelmed by being there. Yet, the Women of the Wall are attempting to pray at the Kotel as many women do in their own congregations which is not allowed do to unfair restrictions. Women have many choices about how to express our faith and all can be honored and allowed.

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