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	<title>Comments on: The righting on the Wall</title>
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		<title>By: Eitan Gutin</title>
		<link>http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-righting-on-the-wall/#comment-124628</link>
		<dc:creator>Eitan Gutin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 May 2013 19:42:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=102498#comment-124628</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[edited the comment]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>edited the comment</p>
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		<title>By: Eitan Gutin</title>
		<link>http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-righting-on-the-wall/#comment-124626</link>
		<dc:creator>Eitan Gutin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 May 2013 19:39:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=102498#comment-124626</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[He linked back to this one today without his adding any comments or edits to it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>He linked back to this one today without his adding any comments or edits to it.</p>
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		<title>By: Oren Pollak</title>
		<link>http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-righting-on-the-wall/#comment-124624</link>
		<dc:creator>Oren Pollak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 May 2013 19:36:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=102498#comment-124624</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hard to mention a recent ruling given that the article was written three months ago]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hard to mention a recent ruling given that the article was written three months ago</p>
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		<title>By: Eitan Gutin</title>
		<link>http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-righting-on-the-wall/#comment-124372</link>
		<dc:creator>Eitan Gutin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 May 2013 19:32:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=102498#comment-124372</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Rabbi Josh Yuter, the first half of your argument is based on a very selective reading of US Constitutional law and how it has developed.

All three examples you cite are related to the Establishment and Free Exercise clauses of the First Amendment to the US Constitution. (Note that the 14th Amendment applies the Bill of Rights to state governments all the way down to local municipalities).

Whenever a case related to rights comes before the Supreme Court (and lower courts as well) the court has to decide how much weight to give the argument of a group or individual who claims that the First Amendment is being violated. Are they part of a suspect class, a group that has historically been discriminated against? If so then the Supreme Court applies a much stricter standard of proof (strict scrutiny) that the right should be abrogated in this particular case. If, however, the person is NOT part of a suspect class then something called rational basis scrutiny is applied instead.

Take school prayer as an example - those arguing against school prayer are usually part of a suspect class; over time Jews, Muslims, atheists, and others have argued that prayer in public school constitutes state established religion, a violation of the first clause of the First Amendment (over many years the Supreme Court has extended the clause&#039;s prohibition beyond legislation and into policy choices). In that case it is those advocating FOR prayer who have to make an argument that will hold up under strict scrutiny. Such an argument would need to prove at a level of near perfection that the state interest in holding prayers is so strong that it supersedes the establishment clause. BTW, the situation you cite is protest, not law, so I am not sure how it applies here.

The peyote case demonstrates how suspect class does not automatically mean that a member of the class will win - since the law in question prohibited the use of illegal substances and was not a banning specifically of religious practice it did not violate the Free Exercise clause. &quot;Oregon&#039;s ban on the possession of peyote is not a law specifically aimed at a physical act engaged in for a religious reason.&quot; Since the law applies the same to everyone AND the state could make a compelling case that there was a state interest the men were denied their unemployment benefits - BTW, they were fired from a DRUG REHABILITATION CLINIC for their use of peyote, and were trying to use the First Amendment argument to collect benefits by saying they were fired without cause.

NYC&#039;s debate about circumcisions should not apply here because no laws have been made or applied.

In any case, the difference between Israel and the USA is that while Israel has a right of Free Exercise it does NOT have an Establishment cause. Judaism is the state established and supported religion of the state of Israel. That is why your school prayer example does not work here since the challenges to those prayers are based on the Establishment Clause. As for the peyote case, the core question remains whether the authorities can make a compelling argument that there is a state interest in keeping women (and egalitarian groups, and people who want to use guitars on Shabbat, etc) from praying at the Kotel while engaging in rituals that have been deemed unacceptable and even offensive by many of the Jews who pray there as well.

It is also worth noting that this essay completely ignores the recent court ruling in Israel that found the law you mentioned does NOT prevent women from wearing tallit and tefillin, reading from the Torah, etc. That is why today the Israeli police were protecting WoW instead of arresting them.

Israel still has to answer the following: Is there a compelling state interest in restricting religious practice at the Kotel to a very specific range based on (basically) Haredi and normative Orthodox practices? I don&#039;t think there is.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rabbi Josh Yuter, the first half of your argument is based on a very selective reading of US Constitutional law and how it has developed.</p>
<p>All three examples you cite are related to the Establishment and Free Exercise clauses of the First Amendment to the US Constitution. (Note that the 14th Amendment applies the Bill of Rights to state governments all the way down to local municipalities).</p>
<p>Whenever a case related to rights comes before the Supreme Court (and lower courts as well) the court has to decide how much weight to give the argument of a group or individual who claims that the First Amendment is being violated. Are they part of a suspect class, a group that has historically been discriminated against? If so then the Supreme Court applies a much stricter standard of proof (strict scrutiny) that the right should be abrogated in this particular case. If, however, the person is NOT part of a suspect class then something called rational basis scrutiny is applied instead.</p>
<p>Take school prayer as an example &#8211; those arguing against school prayer are usually part of a suspect class; over time Jews, Muslims, atheists, and others have argued that prayer in public school constitutes state established religion, a violation of the first clause of the First Amendment (over many years the Supreme Court has extended the clause&#039;s prohibition beyond legislation and into policy choices). In that case it is those advocating FOR prayer who have to make an argument that will hold up under strict scrutiny. Such an argument would need to prove at a level of near perfection that the state interest in holding prayers is so strong that it supersedes the establishment clause. BTW, the situation you cite is protest, not law, so I am not sure how it applies here.</p>
<p>The peyote case demonstrates how suspect class does not automatically mean that a member of the class will win &#8211; since the law in question prohibited the use of illegal substances and was not a banning specifically of religious practice it did not violate the Free Exercise clause. &quot;Oregon&#039;s ban on the possession of peyote is not a law specifically aimed at a physical act engaged in for a religious reason.&quot; Since the law applies the same to everyone AND the state could make a compelling case that there was a state interest the men were denied their unemployment benefits &#8211; BTW, they were fired from a DRUG REHABILITATION CLINIC for their use of peyote, and were trying to use the First Amendment argument to collect benefits by saying they were fired without cause.</p>
<p>NYC&#039;s debate about circumcisions should not apply here because no laws have been made or applied.</p>
<p>In any case, the difference between Israel and the USA is that while Israel has a right of Free Exercise it does NOT have an Establishment cause. Judaism is the state established and supported religion of the state of Israel. That is why your school prayer example does not work here since the challenges to those prayers are based on the Establishment Clause. As for the peyote case, the core question remains whether the authorities can make a compelling argument that there is a state interest in keeping women (and egalitarian groups, and people who want to use guitars on Shabbat, etc) from praying at the Kotel while engaging in rituals that have been deemed unacceptable and even offensive by many of the Jews who pray there as well.</p>
<p>It is also worth noting that this essay completely ignores the recent court ruling in Israel that found the law you mentioned does NOT prevent women from wearing tallit and tefillin, reading from the Torah, etc. That is why today the Israeli police were protecting WoW instead of arresting them.</p>
<p>Israel still has to answer the following: Is there a compelling state interest in restricting religious practice at the Kotel to a very specific range based on (basically) Haredi and normative Orthodox practices? I don&#039;t think there is.</p>
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		<title>By: Levi Kofman</title>
		<link>http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-righting-on-the-wall/#comment-96042</link>
		<dc:creator>Levi Kofman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Feb 2013 06:57:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=102498#comment-96042</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Theres a difference b/w grandstanding and fighting for a just cause. It&#039;s a shame that u seem to have an inability to discern b/w the two. Time after time WOW have proven that they are only interested in the former rather than the latter.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Theres a difference b/w grandstanding and fighting for a just cause. It&#039;s a shame that u seem to have an inability to discern b/w the two. Time after time WOW have proven that they are only interested in the former rather than the latter.</p>
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		<title>By: Levi Kofman</title>
		<link>http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-righting-on-the-wall/#comment-96044</link>
		<dc:creator>Levi Kofman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Feb 2013 06:57:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=102498#comment-96044</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Theres a difference b/w grandstanding and fighting for a just cause. It&#039;s a shame that u seem to have an inability to discern b/w the two. Time after time WOW have proven that they are only interested in the former rather than the latter.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Theres a difference b/w grandstanding and fighting for a just cause. It&#039;s a shame that u seem to have an inability to discern b/w the two. Time after time WOW have proven that they are only interested in the former rather than the latter.</p>
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		<title>By: Erika Pollak</title>
		<link>http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-righting-on-the-wall/#comment-96004</link>
		<dc:creator>Erika Pollak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Feb 2013 22:54:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=102498#comment-96004</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Levi, You completely missed the point; both of the book and of the comparisons made, as expected. The broad context of comparison is the concept of civil disobedience in the face of unjust laws.After all : &quot; It is not always the same thing to be a good man and a good citizen&quot; ( I would write that up to my hellenised origins LOL ).By the way, the name is Erika ( and not Ericka).

P.S. In general I often wonder... how can one demand his/her arguments to be taken seriously if he/she does not respect them to start with, as demonstrated with an unwillingness to express them properly, unencumbered by poor use of grammar and bad spelling, or by the lack of care to address the other with the most basic courtesy expected in a civilised conversation?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Levi, You completely missed the point; both of the book and of the comparisons made, as expected. The broad context of comparison is the concept of civil disobedience in the face of unjust laws.After all : &quot; It is not always the same thing to be a good man and a good citizen&quot; ( I would write that up to my hellenised origins LOL ).By the way, the name is Erika ( and not Ericka).</p>
<p>P.S. In general I often wonder&#8230; how can one demand his/her arguments to be taken seriously if he/she does not respect them to start with, as demonstrated with an unwillingness to express them properly, unencumbered by poor use of grammar and bad spelling, or by the lack of care to address the other with the most basic courtesy expected in a civilised conversation?</p>
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		<title>By: Herbert Kaine</title>
		<link>http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-righting-on-the-wall/#comment-95846</link>
		<dc:creator>Herbert Kaine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Feb 2013 19:52:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=102498#comment-95846</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Actually, since Orthodox Jews reproduce and Reform/Conservative Jews dont, they do possess Judaism. Orthodox sages died for glorification of the faith. I dont expect any Reform/Conservative Jews to die for the ability to eat at a seafood restaurant]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, since Orthodox Jews reproduce and Reform/Conservative Jews dont, they do possess Judaism. Orthodox sages died for glorification of the faith. I dont expect any Reform/Conservative Jews to die for the ability to eat at a seafood restaurant</p>
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		<title>By: Herbert Kaine</title>
		<link>http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-righting-on-the-wall/#comment-95844</link>
		<dc:creator>Herbert Kaine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Feb 2013 19:48:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=102498#comment-95844</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I personally have no problem with women worshipping in the site of the Ezrat Nashim (womens court) of the Second Temple, currently located about halfway between Al Aqsa nd the Dome of the Rock. If non-Orthodox want to change the mode of worship in an Orthodox synagogue, then Orthodox have the right to change the mode of worship at a non-Orthodox synagogue. What would happen if Orthodox men snuck into a non-Orthodox synagogue when it was opened but with few people in it, ie the Sabbath, and made a mechitzah. This issue is not about freedom of worship, it is about sticking it to the Orthodox. Orthodoxy will be along way after Anat Hoffmans children establish a Buddhist commune in Oregon.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I personally have no problem with women worshipping in the site of the Ezrat Nashim (womens court) of the Second Temple, currently located about halfway between Al Aqsa nd the Dome of the Rock. If non-Orthodox want to change the mode of worship in an Orthodox synagogue, then Orthodox have the right to change the mode of worship at a non-Orthodox synagogue. What would happen if Orthodox men snuck into a non-Orthodox synagogue when it was opened but with few people in it, ie the Sabbath, and made a mechitzah. This issue is not about freedom of worship, it is about sticking it to the Orthodox. Orthodoxy will be along way after Anat Hoffmans children establish a Buddhist commune in Oregon.</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah Kaye</title>
		<link>http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-righting-on-the-wall/#comment-95690</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah Kaye</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Feb 2013 13:50:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=102498#comment-95690</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ve decided that EVEN IF (and I&#039;m not saying it is) WOW are dafkaniks with totally political aspirations - I STILL support them. And I think it&#039;s important to support them for many, many reasons.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#039;ve decided that EVEN IF (and I&#039;m not saying it is) WOW are dafkaniks with totally political aspirations &#8211; I STILL support them. And I think it&#039;s important to support them for many, many reasons.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob Sslovich</title>
		<link>http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-righting-on-the-wall/#comment-95646</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob Sslovich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Feb 2013 07:28:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=102498#comment-95646</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Rivkah Lambert Adler  A place was provided for them to pray sa they like. The reason this is not acceptable to WOW is because they are not interested in praying. They are are interested in imposing their egalitarian agenda on those who reject it. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rivkah Lambert Adler  A place was provided for them to pray sa they like. The reason this is not acceptable to WOW is because they are not interested in praying. They are are interested in imposing their egalitarian agenda on those who reject it. </p>
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		<title>By: Levi Kofman</title>
		<link>http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-righting-on-the-wall/#comment-95612</link>
		<dc:creator>Levi Kofman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Feb 2013 02:22:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=102498#comment-95612</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Sarah, wearing one hat and preaching &quot;tolerance,&quot; &quot;respect,&quot; and &quot;pluralism,&quot; and then changing to another hat where incitement to hatred and intolerance of other people is the go, is the standard modus operandi of many so called &quot;liberals.&quot; ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Sarah, wearing one hat and preaching &quot;tolerance,&quot; &quot;respect,&quot; and &quot;pluralism,&quot; and then changing to another hat where incitement to hatred and intolerance of other people is the go, is the standard modus operandi of many so called &quot;liberals.&quot; </p>
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		<title>By: Levi Kofman</title>
		<link>http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-righting-on-the-wall/#comment-95614</link>
		<dc:creator>Levi Kofman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Feb 2013 01:55:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=102498#comment-95614</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@ericka, nice to see that your such an avid reader of harry potter. First comparisons were made to soviet dissidents and now it&#039;s the persecuted wizards at hogwarts. Demagogues will never, ever use or exploit calls for greater &quot;equality&quot; for all or scape goat a minority like the evil, primitive, misogynist haredim and blame them for all of society&#039;s ills. Never, ever.             @Ahuvah, interesting that a number of the opponents of WoW are women who used to be involved with them. A couple of them have left comments here. They know WOW inside out - how they operate and what makes them tick- and have confirmed what most of us have suspected already. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ericka, nice to see that your such an avid reader of harry potter. First comparisons were made to soviet dissidents and now it&#039;s the persecuted wizards at hogwarts. Demagogues will never, ever use or exploit calls for greater &quot;equality&quot; for all or scape goat a minority like the evil, primitive, misogynist haredim and blame them for all of society&#039;s ills. Never, ever.             @Ahuvah, interesting that a number of the opponents of WoW are women who used to be involved with them. A couple of them have left comments here. They know WOW inside out &#8211; how they operate and what makes them tick- and have confirmed what most of us have suspected already. </p>
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		<title>By: Rivkah Lambert Adler</title>
		<link>http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-righting-on-the-wall/#comment-95602</link>
		<dc:creator>Rivkah Lambert Adler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Feb 2013 00:40:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=102498#comment-95602</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That&#039;s exactly my point. The Kotel does not belong to traditional Jews and we ought to stop behaving as though it does.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#039;s exactly my point. The Kotel does not belong to traditional Jews and we ought to stop behaving as though it does.</p>
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		<title>By: Mitchell Nathanson</title>
		<link>http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-righting-on-the-wall/#comment-95598</link>
		<dc:creator>Mitchell Nathanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Feb 2013 00:29:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=102498#comment-95598</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think we need Rabbi Levi Margolin to solve this problem once and for all. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think we need Rabbi Levi Margolin to solve this problem once and for all. </p>
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