A conversation between two anti-Israel Jews

Every now and then, I like to torture myself. So, when I read an article about an American Jewish actor calling Israelis “demonically evil,” I wanted to find out more. There are, of course, more Jews who detest Israel with every fiber of their being, though they are an extreme minority on a global scale. There are even Israelis who have settled in the Diaspora and dedicate themselves to protesting against the land they once called home. Take Israeli expat Yuval Gal, for instance, who is a member of a fringe far-left party in the Netherlands and is known for his anti-Israel agitation. He has lived in the Netherlands for years, yet still gives interviews in English because he is incapable of composing even one decent sentence in Dutch. But, we have freedom of speech and he is entitled to his opinion. Healthy debates between opponents can be fruitful and criticism of Israel is fair. Which is why I decided to look up the podcast where the aforementioned American Jew had made this statement.

Wallace Shawn, that is his name. I will be honest, the name meant nothing to me but when I scrolled down in the article, a picture of the good man was included. I recognized his face from some TV show, but had never taken the time to find out which name was tied to it. The statement was made on a podcast by Katie Halper, an American Jewish comedian, who had a long clip of the conversation on her YouTube channel. Once I started listening, it appeared that Halper hated Israel even more than Shawn. But what was their issue with the Jewish state? Perhaps I had stumbled across a discussion between two intellectuals, who would expound their hatred for Israel based on strong and well-developed arguments. Alas, nothing of the sort was on display. What did strike me was the tortured nature of their logic.

This meeting of minds was compressed into a clip of less than fifteen minutes. Shawn introduced himself as a pacifist and then continued by stating that he could not hate anyone, even his enemies. Halper disagreed, as for her everything boils down to a simple dichotomy. You either love something or hate it. Considering that Halper said that she loves Gazans – I am assuming all Gazans, including Hamas and PIJ – she has to hate all of those who harm the people she loves – i.e., Israelis. Shawn and Halper proceeded to have a discussion about the value of a soldier’s life and the former argued that a soldier’s death is tragic as well. Halper disagreed, as Gazans were allowed to resist occupation, but when she realized he was talking about American soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan, she agreed with him. The interview then continued with Shawn pontificating about Israeli Jews, who did not have to leave the land. That act of benevolence, however, was tied to the prerequisite that the Jewish state needs to be dismantled and a different arrangement needs to be implemented – what that would be is something our octogenarian failed to explain. Finally, Shawn launched into a rather simplistic history lesson about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, basically arguing that everything was Israel’s fault. I decided to watch another podcast featuring a discussion between this spokesperson for Jewish Voice for Peace and Halper, which took place months earlier. It was more of the same, however, in this case Shawn clarified that there was no antisemitism on campuses, protesters did not support Hamas, and if there was rising antisemitism, it would be Israel’s fault, once again. Also, both expressed their love of Avi Shlaim’s work, an Israeli anti-Zionist historian, who has lived in the United Kingdom for most of his life.

Israel is the country where Jews are welcome, but it does not mean that they have to live there. A substantial majority of the global Jewish community supports Israel or treats it favorably, but for most it will be a country to visit, to like from afar. A place to spend a vacation, maybe visit family and friends. There is also a minority of Jews that is indifferent towards Israel or detests it, like Halper and Shawn. Anti-Zionists, of course, should be able to express their opinion and are not a new phenomenon. When the first Zionist Congress was organized at the end of the nineteenth century, it had plenty of Jewish detractors. Anti-Zionists of many stripes existed, from Orthodox Jews who considered a man-made state of Israel to be blasphemous, to assimilated Jews who feared that they would be stripped of their rights in their birth countries. Socialist Jews believed that progress for Jews in society hinged on an end to capitalism. Zionists believed that Jews would prosper by leaving and building a state in the old ancestral heartlands of the Jewish people, where Jews had always remained as a presence, even after most had been slaughtered, expelled, and sold into slavery by the Romans. However, when the modern state of Israel was established, it became a fact. Anti-Zionists were not obliged to move there, but they could if they wished to do so. What is particularly vexing about the discussion between Halper and Shawn, is that they agree that Israel should be dismantled, but they offer no viable alternative. Israeli Jews can stay as an act of heartwarming magnanimity, but that is because nobody wants them – it is basically what Shawn says. That Hamas is vehemently opposed to this is, of course, completely ignored by our two podcast diplomats.

Secondly, their logic is exceptionally poor. Halper does not bat an eye over Israeli soldiers killed and tortured by Hamas and PIJ, because they are oppressed by Israel, thus they are allowed to “resist.” But American soldiers’ deaths are tragic. Let me be clear, each American soldier who died in Iraq and Afghanistan was tragic. To this day, I believe that too many came back in coffins to their loved ones in the US, which in the case of Iraq was exceedingly painful, as no WMDs were ever found. So, I tend to agree with Halper and Shawn that these deaths are to be mourned. However, the fact that Halper refuses to say this about Israeli soldiers exposes her hypocrisy. She is only capable of showing empathy for American soldiers because they are American like her. Let us look at it this way: American soldiers sent to Iraq and Afghanistan were part of a professional army, while Israel has an army of conscripts. The minute American soldiers arrived in these countries and stayed for many years, you could classify them as an occupying force. Therefore, locals were allowed to resist them, according to Halper’s views, right? This alone shows her fatally flawed logic. She should be honest and not hide behind international law when she justifies her lack of empathy for Israelis. It all boils down to this: she loves Americans, her fellow compatriots, and she hates Israelis – and, of course, she loves all Palestinians, regardless of what they do.

The history lesson was, naturally, incredibly skewed in favor of the Palestinians. The most important thing Shawn had to do, was take away agency. So, the violence started in 1948 and Palestinians were the victims. No mention of the 1929 riots where Jews were massacred by Arabs; no mention of the revolt in the 1930s, where Jews were killed in larger numbers; no mention of the fact that Gaza and the West Bank fell under the jurisdiction of Arab countries between 1948 and 1967; no mention of multiple serious diplomatic attempts at solving the conflict, where Palestinians could negotiate themselves, starting with the Oslo Accords all the way to Olmert’s peace plan in 2008; no mention of the fact that Gaza borders on Egypt as well and that Hamas has been governing Gaza, since 2006. No, this would complicate matters for people like Halper and Shawn, who love the Palestinians and therefore need to blame Israelis for all of their ills. Was it Israel’s fault that Hamas threw Fatah officials from rooftops? Is it Israel’s fault that many Palestinians accuse Fatah of corruption? Did Israel force Hamas to torture its Palestinian critics in Gaza?

All of these facts are conveniently ignored. Their rhetoric and arguments are flawed, they do not even follow their own principles. They adore Avi Shlaim, who speaks fondly of Iraq, waxing nostalgic about the opulence his family used to enjoy. My paternal grandparents came from Baghdad, but they did not hobnob with the Iraqi elite as Shlaim’s parents did. It has always annoyed me that he arrogantly presumed that his experience was representative of all Iraqi Jews, including those of the middle and lower classes. It was not. Benny Morris’ review of Shlaim’s autobiography points this out rather well. But Avi Shlaim is known to deny the Palestinians any agency too, determined to call them perennial victims. This, of course, is why Halper and Shawn love his work.

The Israeli government and its policies deserve to be scrutinized, by both Israelis and everyone else. Settler violence is a disgrace and if soldiers are suspected of gross misconduct, they should be investigated and held accountable for their actions, of course. A year and half of war has been devastating, starting with October 7^th. Israelis, the majority of them civilians, were brutally murdered, raped, tortured, maimed, and taken hostage. The war that ensued brought many Palestinians tragedies and hardship. I believe that the war should end, the hostages need to be brought home, and too many soldiers have died already. I agree that Hamas can no longer govern Gaza and should be disarmed, but for more than a year the Israeli government has failed to present an alternative. It is still not clear what it wants, except “total victory.” But returning to Jews like Halper and Shawn, they can lament the hardships that Palestinians have suffered, yet can be stone cold when it comes to Israeli suffering. “October 7^th was horrible, but…” and then it comes. We have heard it too many times, in the end everything is Israel’s fault. Shawn boils everything down to Israelis being a gang of invaders who stole people’s homes, completely ignoring all the complexities of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. More importantly, Shawn’s opinion of Israelis should force him to look at American history. I like the United States, I have visited several times and its people are friendly. A grand country that is the most powerful democracy in the world, that was instrumental in freeing Europe from Nazi oppression. But I have to be critical of one thing. If Americans like Halper and Shawn accuse Israelis of being thieves, I think they have some soul-searching to do. If this is what they truly believe and reject upon their principles and tortured logic, then I think they are talking about the country they call home. Wallace Shawn lives in one of Manhattan’s most affluent neighborhoods today. But I would like to remind our pontificating octogenarian that before Manhattan became American, it was British. And before it was British, it was Dutch. And before that, it was the home of the Lenapi nation. Today they still exist, thankfully, and live in parts of Oklahoma and Wisconsin – gee, I wonder how they ended up there? So, I would invite Shawn to go and visit them and beg for forgiveness, and be grateful that he can live in his expensive home on the land from which their ancestors were expelled.

In short, listening to this cerebral conversation between two anti-Israel Jews was anything but interesting. Their verdict has been cast years ago, Israel is to blame for everything. The regurgitation of the same predictable talking points as always, nothing new. And, obviously, Jewish Voice for Peace consistently keeps ignoring Hamas or act as its apologist, as was so ably demonstrated by Shawn. And why should Hamas not slaughter Israelis, both Jewish and Arab, after all? According to Shawn, Israelis are “demonically evil.” Hamas needs to be excused, despite the fact that its terrorists slaughtered and kidnapped Thai workers on October 7^th, even memorizing Thai sentences to lure workers out of hiding. But I guess Wallace and Katie would call this “resistance” as well.