The Blogs: Interview of Jean-Pierre Lledo - film director and writer | Laurent Cudkowicz

The writer Boualem Sansal is hostage of the Algerian Government

I had the pleasure to meet Jean-Pierre Lledo on a warm and sunny winter afternoon in Tel Aviv[i]. This was not the only contrast. Jean-Pierre Lledo himself leads his life like a novel full of contrasts. Born in Algeria to a Jewish mother in 1947, he did not leave this homeland for whose independence his father had fought, in 1962 like almost all the non-Muslim population, but in 1993, threatened by the Islamists. Film director, writer, Jean-Pierre Lledo gets acquainted with Israel in 2008, and later, settles in it. His story is uncommon (but what is common in Israel?) and will be the subject of a later interview.

Here and now, the urgency requires that we deal with the arrest and custody of the French Algerian writer Boualem Sansal. Detained in an Algerian prison since November 16^th, 2024, Jean-Pierre Lledo is his friend.

Laurent Cudkowicz: Three weeks after Boualem Sansal’s arrest in Algeria, do you have any news about him?

Jean-Pierre Lledo: He has just been transferred to a prison in a small town called Koléa, one hour away from Algiers. In the past, heavy Islamist criminals had been detained there, criminals who had started the civil war during the “Black Decade”. At first, they put him in the largest hospital in Algeria, the Mustapha Hospital which was founded during the colonization. Why did they put him in custody in this hospital? Apparently, he passed out. But I don’t really have any news. On December 11^th, his release request, which had been introduced by his French lawyer, François Zimeray, was declined. So, Boualem remains in prison. Moreover, Algeria refused to grant an entry visa to his lawyer, even though there are agreements between France and Algeria which should have allowed it. The rights of the defendant are therefore already much compromised.

LC: He is the lawyer who has been designated by Gallimard, his publishing house, right?

JPL: Yes. I think that it would be good if there were a group of lawyers. There are two of them in Algeria, apparently, but we aren’t sure of anything. As of now, we don’t even know their names. It’s strange. Did Boualem hire them? Are they public defenders? I don’t know. Many things are unknown. Basic things. All this is bad omens.

LC: Is it plausible that he could choose lawyers who are open to really defend his cause?

JPL: In the 80’s, there was a Marxist lawyer who had represented a Communist film director. Together with the involvement of intellectuals gathered under a movement called RAIS (gathering of artists, intellectuals and scientists)[ii], we had him freed after 3 months. And it happened for others as well. One of the lawyers was a member of the DRS-Department of Intelligence and Security[iii], which embodied and still does various ideological trends. This lawyer is the one who, after the new constitution of 1989, admitting political pluralism, founded the Human Rights League. Even though it was supporting the government, this league had to defend some causes, in order to keep its legitimacy.

LC: For now, the only official component we have is the press release from the APS-Algeria Press Service, right ?

JPL: Right, even though all of its journalists including its head are agents from the DRS. The speech used in this press release reminded me of 1965. On June 19^th, a “coup” took place, followed by the creation of the ORP, an organization of popular resistance which included communists and NLF-National Liberation Front[iv]leftists militants. In those days, the press releases from the APS were extremely violent and used the same kind of speech: imprecatory, irrevocably and, of course, proofless. Insults are hurled, “Zionist” and so on. They have the same specific touch. The touch originating in the government agencies of the DRS. I have to say that Europeans have a hard time understanding that the people who work in these agencies are the most educated ones. They have been chosen according to a strict selection. They passed the baccalaureate, they are undergraduate, they are postgraduate. Their speech is very carefully designed. And of course, it has an influence on slavish journalists and on light-minded spirits. I published an article in “Le Figaro”[v] ]in support of Boualem Sansal[ and I received an e-mail from a young Algerian who claimed that he was French-born. His 30 lines text charges without any argument nor the slightest proof. These people have, of course, never read any Sansal book, never watched any of my films…Maybe, they are paid to write these messages.

LC: Did Boualem Sansal consider that he could be arrested? Did he prepare himself to it, one way or the other? He used to travel to Algeria so he had to know that it was dangerous.

JPL: It has been a long time that many people, including me, had told him that, considering what he was writing, he had to think of leaving Algeria. But he kept refusing. He was saying that, if was cut off from Algeria, he would be detached from the web of his writings, of his novels. I can understand him. I remember myself, in 1993, when everybody would tell me to leave, I did not want to. I was saying to myself: “I am nurtured from everything which surrounds me, and I am going to be uprooted from all this. What am I going to do afterwards?” It felt this kind of distress. But last year, I was invited to the 50^th congress of the “Cercle algérianiste”, the largest non-profit developing the culture of French Algeria, to which Boualem was very close. We met there. I asked him when he would visit us in Israel. He answered: “soon…when I will be in France”. This was after October 7^th ]2023[, probably around October 19^th. Moreover, his wife had been very sick. He had a hard time curing her in Algeria, so he sent her to France. Maybe 3 or 4 months ago, I asked him how she was. He answered that she was better, but that she needed follow-up.

The question had been asked to him many times. “How come you have not been arrested with all you say?” He was explaining to us that his fame as a writer was protecting him, and that it was a way for the Algerian government to show that it is not dictatorial. Except that now, there was a combination of circumstances: French President Macron had decided to support Morocco in its claim towards Western Sahara and Boualem Sansal’s statement regarding the border between Morocco and Algeria. Regarding Macron’s support, the Algerian ambassador has been recalled but nothing more. I was surprised by how little Algeria’s reaction was, considering how much it had invested in the subject of Western Sahara. And then, it was enough that Boualem spoke about the border between Algeria (which was not yet Algeria), and Morocco. This border has always been fluid until colonial France annexed territories which belonged to Morocco. Independent Algeria inherited a favorable layout and refused to negotiate it with Morocco even though the FLN had committed to it before independence.

So, the Algerian government seized this opportunity and took Sansal as a hostage, to force France lean to its side in the arm-wrestle between them. All this is much beyond Sansal’s personality, his writings or his interviews. Especially if it reaches an international level: the European Parliament or United Nations.

It is certain that Boualem Sansal as a hostage, as a writer, even a rebellious one, is of no interest to Algeria. Moreover, he recently received French citizenship and it was well-known that he was going to leave Algeria and move to France. Maybe this last journey was the one to organize his moving.

All this is pathetic, as I said in my piece in the Figaro, because a state which wants to be considered as a State of Law and note as a rogue state should react politically when it feels challenged. For example, after President Macron’s statement on Western Sahara, it could have reacted with retaliation. For example, it could have stopped oil or natural gas shipments. But, to take it out on a man, moreover a writer, is really as despicable as it gets. It is unspeakable.

LC: Might one think that the Islamic and the Islamist worlds feel a kind of immunity, at least up to Bashar Al-Assad’s fall? Hamas kills hostages unchecked. It does not, at all, affect its positions in the negotiation for their release. After October 7^th’s massacre, instead of a wave of friendship towards Israel and towards the Jews, there was a massive worldwide increase in Jew-hatred. We hear Algerian intellectuals stating: “The world is not anymore on the side of the Jews”. As Boualem Sansal is rebuked for being a Zionist, it is considered to be easier to go after him. And it seems that they are right. As of today, France still did not react officially to the arrest of one of its citizens.

JPL: France justifies this by the fact that they use diplomatic backchannels to prevent any conflict. This is meant to be in the interest of Sansal. If and when he is actually judged and sentenced, the tone would probably change. But is this strategy of “taking on”, adapted to a state who wants to grab a major concession from France? The Algerian government wants to obtain and even seize something from the French government. And not something material. They look more for some symbol. I heard an Algerian lady who was interviewed and asked, “what should France do”? She replied that the French government should say that “colonization had been a crime against humanity, that there has been killings in May 1945, killings here and there, if it admitted all this, this problem would be solved”.

Would Algeria merely expel Sansal, and maybe remove his citizenship? By the way, if they do, I will request that they remove mine as well (laughs). I still own it but, of course, if I were to travel back there, they would throw me in prison right away because I live in Israel.

LC: Do we know if Boualem Sansal is treated well?

JPL: I don’t think that he is ill-treated, underfed or tortured. I don’t believe it. As I said, they are not interested in Sansal. He is a hostage. This is why I proposed to the support committee, that it requests from the Paris City Hall that they display a picture of him on the outside of its building, like they did for Ingrid Bettencourt[vi]. The Beziers City Hall and its mayor, the French Algerian born, Robert Ménard, spread pictures of Israeli hostages on the building.

LC: What do you think of the French support campaign for Boualem Sansal in France?

JPL: I am not in France, but the rallying of intellectuals was quite large. It was even considered to make him a member of the French Academy. He was not elected, though all the voters were in favor. But some of them thought that it would be a hindrance for his defense. Sansal’s novels have a large audience. Beyond organizations like the “Cercle algérianiste” which gathered 2300 signatures, he has supporters in France, Germany, and in the Italian press, maybe also at the European Parliament. The petition which appears on change.org[vii] collected more than 45,000 signatures. The Algerian government will not be able to remain insensitive. Moreover, this kind of regime is not so much supported lately, when you consider what has happened to Al-Assad in Syria. In spite of its military defeat at the end of the nineties, the Algerian Islamists, now wearing suits, are on the lookout. Internal stability is at risk. The first agent which causes instability in the Middle East, Iran, falters. And this might be even stronger when Trump will start to rule soon. It will bear consequences also on Algeria.

Will we manage to make Boualem Sansal’s condition known in the US? It would be great.

LC: Do we know if he has genuine supporters in Algeria?

JPL: Maybe there are some, but there was no statement. My piece in Le Figaro, was precisely intended for these Algerian intellectuals who don’t say anything. In fact, the situation declined. In the 80’s, up to 1993, the RAIS gathered people against censorship, torture. Each of us was getting involved in its own name. (…)

But the problem with Boualem Sansal, is that he did not only fight Islamism, taunt Islam and Nationalism. He made sure not to be in the same position as Salman Rushdie. But mainly, he did not make for it like many Arab dissenting intellectuals usually do, by criticizing the Jews or Israel. This is unbearable in Algeria.

The Algerian intellectuals are all for unanimism. This does not mean that they all think in accordance with the power, but, they will not express any disagreement whether privately or as a public figure.

LC: When did Boualem Sansal start to disturb the figures of power?

JPL: He got famous right after his first novel “Le serment des barbares”, published by Gallimard. He was very much praised by all. He was not criticized even by the power. It’s only later that he started to “disturb”. Sometimes, one hears that his novels are censored in Algeria. It is not true. I asked him the question. He answered that bookshop owners were afraid to promote or display his books or they wouldn’t order them. It happens that, if you insist, the bookshop owner would sometimes find a copy.

LC: When did you become friends?

JPL: I don’t remember when we first met. I know that we became very friendly in 2008. The Paris Book fair was honoring one country every year. That year, it was Israel. Of course, all Arab world writers had called to boycott. But Sansal said: “No, this is literature. Everybody writes stories for everyone. It is not a country which we have here. They are stories”. This was his defense. After that, we talked. Me of my film which had been forbidden in Algeria[viii] and him of the desperate situation inside Algeria.We were completely on the same wavelength.

In 2012, he was a guest of honor of the International Writer’s festival of Jerusalem[ix]. It was the year during which I was shooting my film “Israel, the forbidden journey”[x]. I asked him if he agreed to take part in it. He accepted right away, and he said very important things in it. He was stunned by the sight which appeared before him. We were on top of the Kotel[xi]. We were hearing church bells, the muezzin next to us. He mentioned a kind of “entanglement of the religions”. Regarding Israel, he mentioned that in Algeria, since the 1962 independence, the name of Israel had never been mentioned. Only the “Zionist entity” or the “occupation power”, etc…And when you don’t name things…, he completed my thought: “it means that you erase completely this country, it doesn’t exist”.

He thought it was peculiar to be in Jerusalem, and he wondered if we would be able to someday fly directly from Algiers to Jerusalem. At least he insisted that he came to Israel out love for it. “I just came because I love Israel. If I didn’t, I would not have come. It is not by ideology.” He also added that there is an antisemitic basis which originates in the oldest and furthest Moslem tradition.

Then, Ziva ]Postec[ [xii] asked him a question regarding his novel “Le village de l’Allemand”. She had read it in Hebrew, and was amazed at the fact that an Arab writer knew so much about the Shoah. She asked him if he really was the only one. He did not answer.

The fact that he had accepted to come to the Jerusalem bookfair, deprived him of winning to Paris prize. This prize, had been created by Arab ambassadors to France and was due to reward Arab writers. That year, for its first event, the jury had voted for Boualem Sansal. The ambassadors deprived him of the prize, which was really as despicable as it gets. The jury, to which it was asked to choose another novel, refused. After that, he travelled back to Algeria, which was daring. He was not arrested.

LC: What can be said to readers who would want to support Boualem Sansal’s release?

JPL: Before answering that, I think that it needs to be said that Boualem Sansal’s main charges in his writings, are against Islamism. The latest developments of the world during the last years, prove to us that he had rightfully pointed out the most important political and social phenomenon of the 3 to 4 last decades. Precisely, after Khomeiny reached power in Iran, Islamism gained momentum. In Israel, we had October 7^th, and we see that some citizens who held various positions of power or not, neglected this phenomenon of Islamism. Why? Because we fear to relate what we call Islamism to Islam. Sifaoui, for example, wrote recently a book blaming Hamas. When he was interviewed by all the Jewish radios in France and emphasized that Islamism had nothing to do with Islam. But it does, the relation between them is real. This is what all Boualem Sansal books explain. The novels, the essays, his statements, are a gift to universal awareness, a call for vigilance.

Today, as he is detained, the only way to be grateful to his work and to what he provided to the world, is to struggle to have him released from where he is imprisoned. At the very least, the world’s intellectual elites should be up to the task of amplifying the message that Sansal kept transmitting. Moreover, if the legal process is not interrupted, he could be convicted to a very hard sentence. This is why we ought to act as quickly and as widely as possible.

One always speaks about freedom as a basic value of Judaïsm. Therefore, we should be even more be concerned about this battle. I know that some Jews think that we should not support Sansal conspicuously, because, precisely, he was accused of Zionism. It might not look good for his legal case, it could be counter-productive. I think exactly the opposite. If Jews were silent on that matter, the Algerian government would say: “they are hiding”. Conspiracy thinking is very widespread in the Arab world. “Mein Kampf” and “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion”, are bestsellers there. So, if Jews remain silent, it would be proof, for the Algerian government that “they pull all the strings”. So, we may as well speak head-on.

I suggest that our readers give some thought to this.

LC: Thank you very much, Jean-Pierre Lledo.

If you are interested in taking part to Boualem Sansal’s support committee: