Conversation with a Conspiracist

This conversation happened more or less as I have transcribed it below.  It took place as a phone call over the WhatsApp platform. I did not record it but soon after it took place, I replayed it verbatim to my wife and a couple of friends, so it became more or less fixed in my mind.

The conversation is between me and a business acquaintance, not a friend as such but someone who I have come to respect as an honest and level-headed person.  For the sake of privacy, I will call him Max. For this rendition, Max lives in Germany.

The conversation took place a few days before Rosh Hashanna as the realization began to sink in that we are losing the fight against the coronavirus: the number of people testing positive and the number of people falling sick, the number of people admitted to hospital and the number of people dying, are all rising exponentially.   And as the Holy Days approached I looked in awe and helplessness as another lock-down loomed inevitably over us.

-Hi Max.

-Hi Michael.

-How’s life in Germany?

-Great. Was raining a bit today. Autumn’s here. Other than that …





-No masks?


-Aren’t you keeping distance and all that?


-Shit. Lucky you guys. We’re just going into another lock-down. It’s getting worse and worse. Soon the hospitals are going to be overrun with COVID patients.

-Michael, listen to me, it’s all lies.

-What are you talking about? What lies?

-Corona, virus, COVID. It’s all a lie.

-Max, are you joking? Because it’s not very funny.  How can you say that?

-Michael. Listen to me. There is a virus. It is making people sick. But it’s a flu virus.

-But Max, it may be a flu virus but it’s pretty deadly. What about all the people who have died?

-Do you know more people died in Germany last year from the common flu virus than have died from the so-called coronavirus? That’s a fact.

-But what about my daughter-in-law? She got a fever, was stuck in her room for four weeks, couldn’t breathe. She said that if it weren’t for the oxygen balloon she would have died.  She said that she was suffocating. Do you think that she was making it up? She’s 7 months pregnant. Why would she make something like that up? Coronavirus is real.

-Michael. Did she die? Did your daughter-in-law die?

-Of course not. Thank God she recovered.

-There you go then.  It’s not deadly. It’s just a nasty flu bug.

-But thousands of people have died. Is that a lie?

-People die all the time. I’ve seen documents, real evidence, showing that normal deaths have been attributed falsely to corona.  Doctors are being encouraged to attribute all deaths to the virus. Especially old people.  I’m telling you, in Germany more people died of the flu virus last year than this year.  But they’re not telling us that.

-Who’s ‘they’?

-The government. The media. The hospitals.


-Michael. You’ve been taken in by the media. You believe blindly what they’re telling you.  You need to wake up.

-Max what are you saying? Why would the government lie to us except, perhaps, to tell us that things are much worse than they’re letting on.

-This may sound strange…

-It’s beginning to sound more than strange…

-But governments all over the world are closing down their economies, locking down their people for nothing.  If there were more deaths last year from the common cold why didn’t we have to wear masks then? Why didn’t we have to keep social distance then, last year and the year before? Why now?

-Why now, Max? Please tell me.

-Because they want power.

-Power? Who wants power?

-The governments. They want to enslave their people to gain power.

-Really? Why? Why do they want power? They’re already in power. How does destroying the country’s economy give them power? I don’t get it.

-It’s all about power.  Everyone wants more power.

-But what for? Look Max, and I hope I don’t offend you with this example, Hitler wanted power. Why? Not for power’s sake but because he had an ideology that he wanted to implement.  Domination of the world by the Master Race.  Very simple and straight forward. And in order to do that he needed to gain power (and kill the Jews). The point is that there must be a reason. Why would anyone wanting power destroy the economy of their own country?

-To enslave the people, Michael.  To turn us all into slaves.

-I hear you Max, I hear you. But what for? And another thing, do you really believe that all the countries in the world are in cahoots with each other? That seems rather unlikely.

-Sweden. They’re not.

-But Max, they apologized for making an awful mistake.

-That’s what they had to say. They were made to say that. Don’t you get it? Listen Michael, I’ve seen papers smuggled out of a secret conference that took place in Davos last year. They’re all in it together.

-And the media?

-And the media. All of them.

-But if that’s true then there must be someone behind it, some mastermind. Who Max, who’s behind it all?

Silence. Then in a whisper I heard Max answer.

-Gates. Bill Gates.  He’s behind it all.

-Bill Gates!!! But that’s ridiculous Max. Why? Why would he want to enslave the world’s population?

-Two reasons. Michael, listen carefully, this is not a joke, I’m deadly serious. My friend’s ex-husband is a political reporter. He’s seen the documents. He has proof. Gates is behind it.

I felt marginally relieved that he hadn’t said Soros. That would have been a conversation killer.

-But why? He’s rich enough. He doesn’t need more money.

-Michael. Do you know that the Gates Foundation has invested in every main media outlet in Germany? He controls them all. Whatever he wants us to believe we are told by the media.  That want us to believe that there’s an enemy virus out there, that it’s threatening us, killing us. And you’re going to ask me ‘Why?’. Right? I’ll tell you. Fear. Fear is the tool to control the people. They’ve instilled in us fear so that we will give up our rights, our freedom, our democracies.

-But Max, I still don’t get it.  Why would Bill Gates want to destroy democracy? And while we’re at it, did he make the virus as well?

-Michael, you have to believe me.  You have to see that you’re a victim of the media, run by the governments, owned by Bill Gates. I know it’s difficult but I’ve seen the documents, I’ve seen the proof.

-But how do you know that those documents are…

-Let me go on. I want to answer your question.  Gates’s plan is to reduce the world population by at least half to make it sustainable again. He’s designed the virus. And he’s got all the governments of the world to fall in place because he’s so powerful.


-So, there is an ideology behind all this.  I told you, Max, I told you.  But there’s something bothering me. If the coronavirus was designed to cull the world’s population then it’s not very effective, is it?

-What do you mean?

-Well it’s not very deadly is it? Did you see the film Contagion? Now that was a virus! It rapidly and awfully reduced the population load on the planet’s ecosystem.  I mean Gates is definitely smart enough and wealthy enough that if he wanted to carry out that plan he would have ordered a variant of Ebola and not flu.  I mean, seriously, why bother with such a half-baked, pathetic virus?

-Michael, it’s obvious isn’t it? This is a dry run; a test to see how the health systems work; looking for vulnerabilities that can then be exploited when the real one is released; checking the compliancy of the governments. Look how easily our Woman in Trousers acquiesced.  She’s in his pocket. She’s out to destroy Germany’s economy.

-So you think that the really deadly virus is still to come?

-Yes, for sure.  Michael, you must listen to me. You must prepare yourself. And your family. Don’t believe anything they tell you.  It’s all propaganda.

SilenceThinking hard.

-Max? You still there?

-Yes Michael. I’m still here. I know that you probably think I’m crazy but…

-Max. I want you to listen to me. I want you to listen me carefully. OK?

-OK Michael.  I’m listening.

-You’re looking the wrong way.

-What? What do you mean ‘the wrong way’?

-I understand what you’re saying about Gates. I got that but that’s not what this is about.  Gates is too smart to allow all this to be pinned on him.  If he’s really behind this then believe me, you would never know it. His name would never appear anywhere. Everything would be hidden so deeply that not even the most ardent of conspiratorial investigator would unearth anything.  You’re looking in the wrong direction.  Look East not West.


-Yes, East.  Listen and it will all make sense.  It’s the Chinese. They created this virus, we know that, and they created it, davka, not to be deadly.


-Sorry. Hebrew word meaning…especially. Of course they don’t want to kill off their own population. That would be foolish.  They’re not going to murder their own grandparents and precious grandchild even although they’ve done it before during the Cultural Revolution. No, they have another plan.  They want to attain economic dominance across the globe. Look how fast they’ve recovered. Look how fast they’ve bounced back.  They knew exactly what to expect.  Now they’re sitting comfortably, all factories running at full speed, while the rest of the world’s economies are collapsing.  Who’s helping Italy recover? China. Who’s helping Spain recover? China. Trump foolishly tried to reign in the Chinese economy and guess what? It’s the American economy that’s going down the drain.  It may never recover. ‘America, Never Great Again’! This is the Chinese plan.  And they are smart.  So smart that they’ve fooled you into looking in the wrong direction, of accusing your own government of economicide.


-A word I just made up.  Murdering the economy. Self-destruction. Think about it, Max. Think hard. The Chinese are the ones that have infiltrated the Western media. They are the ones behind everything. It’s they who’ve fabricated those documents, who’ve dropped ‘evidence’ to the conspiracy theorists. They’re smart Max. Much smarter than you or I. You’re thinking, believing and behaving exactly the way they planned. They’ve made you look in the wrong direction. You’re gullible. You swallowed it hook, line and sinker. You know what that means?

-Yes. I know that expression.




-You’re a genius. I never saw it. I was blinded by our stupid German beliefs in conspiracies. You’re right. I always knew you Jews were smart. You know how to ask the right questions, again and again. It was right under my nose the whole time. How stupid could I be? Gates. When all along it’s the Chinese.  The Chinese have the motivation and they have the means. They control the Internet. We know that.  They’re probably listening in on our conversation right now. Michael, thank you so much. Really.  You opened my eyes to the truth.



-Shannah Tova. May we all have a sweet, healthy and enlightened New Year.

-Happy New Year to you too.

About the Author
Michael Kagan is the author of the Holistic Haggadah (Urim), God’s Prayer (Albion-Andalus) and The King’s Messenger (Albion-Andalus Books). He is a scientist, entrepreneur, film-maker and teacher of Holistic Judaism. He lives in Jerusalem with his wife, Rabbi Ruth Gan Kagan.
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