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Alexandre Gilbert

Efraim Zuroff Interview | Alex Gilbert #253

Efraim Zuroff (Wikipedia CC BY 4.0)
Efraim Zuroff (Wikipedia CC BY 4.0)
What’s going on with the Crédit Suisse Nazi accounts discovered in Argentina by Pedro Filipuzzi?

Efraim Zuroff: I heard the name, that he has something to do with it, but I never met him, never spoke to him, never had anything to do with these accounts. This happened in Argentina. We have an office there, in Buenos Aires, so of course, the person who runs the office will be the one to deal with this issue. I’m not aware of any blocking and I’m not interested in those issues. My fear is that it might be conducted in a manner that will hurt the issues of Holocaust education and history. In other words, if this turns into the main subject, it will only increase antisemitism. People will say, “Now we know why Jews are so obsessed with the Holocaust, because at the end of the day, they’ll present us with a bill for it.” This is a very sensitive subject; you know about all the tropes about Jews and money, I assume. I don’t want the subject of the Holocaust to turn into a competition or a campaign to obtain money.

I’m very happy they didn’t involve me because I don’t want to deal with these issues. They wanted to handle it and didn’t want to get me involved, and I’m happy because I think it’s an incredibly sensitive and dangerous subject.

Was money an issue regarding the cases of Dinko Sakić, Sándor Képíró, John Demjanjuk, and Gregor Formanek in Croatia, Hungary, Ukraine, or Romania?

Their crimes were not about stealing property from people; it was about killing or helping to kill people. And I think they’re a hell of a lot more important than so much stolen money from some godforsaken place.

Are you shocked Serge Klarsfeld supported the Rassemblement National?

Efraim Zuroff: No, I’m not shocked. He explained why he did it,. He doesn’t like me for some reason, so I’m not a fan of his in that respect. He stopped Nazi hunting 25 years ago and turned to deal with other aspects of the Holocaust. He wrote very important books and projects, and that’s all fine. But he was very negative about me, and I don’t think it was justified. He says you don’t catch Nazis by giving press conferences. That’s what he told me. As if I never went to South America to catch Nazis, to Croatia, Hungary—you name it. I’ve been there; I traveled all over the world to try to bring Nazis to justice.

Are you obsessed with journalists and celebrity?

Efraim Zuroff: He thinks so. Listen, did I go to Syria like them? No, because I don’t have a passport to get to Syria. Beate Klarsfeld is a very brave woman, and she and her husband have done some very good things. But I don’t see any reason why, there is an idiotic rivalry between people who are trying to bring Nazis to justice. You talk to any of them, they’ll tell you they’re the only people doing it correctly and everyone else is doing it wrong. Why? Think a little bit—they want to get all the credit.

History is a collective work, right?

Efraim Zuroff: What do you mean by a collective thing? If people do good work, I’m ready to support them. It’s a very important subject, and first, the efforts of people who are honest.

Why was the Gregor Formanek case dropped?

Efraim Zuroff: The doctor who examined him claimed that he was not healthy enough to stand trial. The lawyers prosecuting him said they would appeal to a higher court. But every day passing day makes it more likely that he will be disqualified. His health will deteriorate even further, and he will not be able to face trial. It’s not a matter of age. The lawyers I helped to find survivors or people who had relatives… it happens that people are not physically or mentally able to face trial. I used to say jokingly, “I’m the only Jew who prays for the health of Nazis.” The effort to facilitate the prosecution of Nazi criminals faces many obstacles. The time that has passed, I mean, the odds are all against us. Every trial is a semi-miracle. And I’m sorry that it’s not happening. My heart goes out to the victims of Sachsenhausen. We can’t do what we can’t do.

After Josef Mengele in Marathon Man, The Boys from Brazil, Adolf Hitler in Der Untergang, Inglorious Basterds, The Man in the High Castle, Leni Riefensthal in Race, is Netflix celebrating to much nazis in movies such as Operation finale, Jaguar, Nazi hunters, Blood & Gold or Eldorado?

Efraim Zuroff: That’s true for Mengele’s who’s become an iconic figure for the mass murder of Jews and the experiments he did. Some people did not accept that he died in Embu and even if we had the DNA of Rolf, his son, and dental records, it was proven by the best methods that science has to identify people. So I know someone from the Israeli police who didn’t believe Mengele had died and was buried in Embu. Why? Because Mengele is larger than life in a certain sense. He fell into the conspiracy theory. So Rolf gave us dental records, not to me personally, but to the people who did the checking. And the same is true: we couldn’t catch him when he was alive and put him on trial. Another one of these unfortunate cases.

Have you heard of the Natzweiler-Struthof camp in France ?

Efraim Zuroff: I read what you wrote, but I don’t know anything about it.

Some say “walls aren’t responsible”, “there’s no skeleton collection” since bodies were dismantled before there could be any. Same nonsense pretending there was no gas chambers in Auschwitz since they were mostly in Birkenau.

Efraim Zuroff: This is so prevalent, you know. In every single country which made the transition from communism to democracy in Eastern Europe, there’s a false narrative of the Holocaust, and the history they tell is totally distorted. It’s not that they deny the Holocaust; they say the Holocaust was a terrible tragedy. The Nazis came and murdered all our Jews. Oh, very interesting. And what about your people, and about collaborators from your country? No, only a few misfits and sociopaths. This is what I’ve been fighting against for the last 20 years.

Some say Vichy saved French Jews and gave up foreign Jews.

Efraim Zuroff: Listen, Chirac took responsibility 25 years ago for Vichy.

Marine Le Pen said the Rafle du Vel d’Hiv was ordered by french authorities.. 

Efraim Zuroff: Her father certainly wasn’t a friend of the Jews.

Her best friends are Neo-Nazis.

Efraim Zuroff: What about the far left?

Mostly micro-parties gathering together, intellectually weak, anti-Zionist when it’s in the news. We miss people like you or Serge Klarsfeld. 

Efraim Zuroff: Listen, we’re trying our best. In my most recent book, I wrote about Lithuania, where a woman whose family was involved in killing Jews wanted to atone for it, make up for it, and do something to teach about the Shoah. The book did not come out in French, but was published in eight different languages. And that’s one of the ways we’re fighting against these lies. I don’t know why it wasn’t published in French. One of my books was published in France, Chasseur de nazis, by Michel Lafon. But the book on Lithuania could not find a publisher. Listen, as far as I’m concerned, I want every single one of my books published all over the world, but it was only published in eight languages. Also I never focused on France because we had an office in Paris. Shimon Samuels was the head of the office, and I didn’t want to interfere with him because he interfered with me. Even though I wasn’t responsible for Western Europe but for Eastern Europe. It’s possibly the same problem that happened with South America. That’s in Argentina, and I’m not in Argentina. And I’m happy I’m not in Argentina because I don’t want to deal with this. I was not upset at all not being involved in the Crédit Suisse case. I was very happy. I don’t know why the case isn’t moving on since Crédit Suisse said they found nothing. I have enough on my plate. I’m combating lies in Eastern Europe. Not Vladimir Putin who is a different problem but Croatia, Latvia, Romania, Estonia, Hungary—they’re all lying about the Holocaust. Nationalists don’t want to admit the crimes committed by their own people. I’m neither optimistic, nor pessimistic. I’m realistic. But part of the problem is there is no one calling these countries out, protesting, and I blame Netanyahu too because his strategy was to create a wedge between Western Europe, which is obsessed with the Palestinians, and Eastern Europe, where they couldn’t give a damn about the Palestinians. Everything has to be done through the EU with consensus. All that to save Israel from resolutions regarding the Palestinians. It worked to some extent. I just wish people would start telling the truth. The governments have to set the example. They have Memorial Day in Lithuania and all they talk about is the fact that the Jews were killed, but they never mention who killed them.

Ronen Bergman confronted Andrzej Duda, the president of Poland, for saying there was never such a thing as Polish extermination camps.

Efraim Zuroff: Yes, those were German camps in Poland and the Struthof, was a German camp in France. But it’s not the thing I’m fighting about—first of all, at a certain level, they’re right. The only Poles who were in these camps were inmates. So they’re not responsible for building those camps and running those camps. And of course, they never denied Jews were killed in those camps, because it’s ridiculous. But at least 200,000 Jews were killed by Poles who either killed them themselves or turned them in to the Gestapo. And that’s documented. I know Serge Klarsfeld said anyone who calls those camps Polish camps is insulting the victims and they have a right to be upset about it. They are correct, but come on, admit your people killed Jews. Same for people in France saying the Maréchal Pétain  « saved French jews ».That’s absurd. The idea that native Jews gave foreign Jews to the Nazis is total nonsense, and you know it.

Efraim Zuroff (Mr.Holocaust), director of the Israel office of the Simon Wiesenthal center, founder of the nazi hunting Operation Last Chance published Our People: Discovering Lithuania’s Hidden Holocaust with Ruta Vanagaite (2020).

About the Author
Alexandre Gilbert is the director of the Chappe gallery.
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